Improving my craft with a DSLR?

[Stephen Mick]

Just an FYI…

I've used the 720/60p mode extensively, and I wouldn't consider it overly "soft" or discount it at all. In fact, I can tell very little difference between HVX 720p 60-frame/sec footage on a 42" HDTV and 7D 60p.

I've also shot with both the 5D and 7D, and even with expensive Canon "L" glass there's very little difference in image quality between them. This opinion (which is what it is) is shared by a number of people I've worked with.

If you're improving your craft, I'd say having 60p, 24p and 30p at your disposal is fairly important.

And if you want a "golden ticket" in a camera, you'll be waiting a long time. Even a firmware upgrade for the 5D (which I'm looking forward to) won't give the camera 60p, and may just give you a choice between 30p (29.97) and 24p (23.98). Who knows until it gets here? But I wouldn't buy a camera based on what it might do next year.

I own a 5DII because it IS the better still camera, though even that advantage isn't huge. If you can only own one, I say get the 7D. If you're working in controlled environments, the extra stop or stop-and-a-half of sensitivity on the 5D won't make a massive difference anyway.

And I'll even put this out there, which will likely draw some ire… Get a kit with a lens whether you get a 7D or 5DII. Work with the kit lens on some test shooting to get a sense of which focal lengths you like before you pour any amount of money into other lenses. You might find that you really like the look of 30mm on the 7D, or 85mm on the 5D. This could help you prioritize which focal lengths to get, and you can always sell your "kit" lens later.

Save $1000 for other things. Like I said, you'll figure out what you NEED pretty quickly, as opposed to what you WANT.

 

[morgan_moore]

On the lenses it is important to 'focus' on real world use

I would say that for work to look cinematic you are probably going to shooting at 2.8 with the 7d or 4 or 5.6 with the 5d

I think that you will find that the lenses perform much better at 4 or 5.6 than at 2.8

I am aware of the 'if they are good enough for 18mp stills then they are good enough for 1080 film' school of thought but it is just not true (I have been testing) - many lenses are soft when fully open

And at the wide end, if you want to shoot at 2.8 with your 7d then open is your only option

The truth is to make a 7d work at the wide end you would need an 18mmF2 lens to be used at t2.8 - that is a $5k+ cine lens

Then we have not touched on what lenses work with a follow focus, and have suitable travel - that is the old primes not modern wide zooms with their ultra short travel for which FF is a total PITA

Chuck in the availability of old quality primes for bargain used prices and the 5d becomes a better package at dollar vs sharpness vs field of view covered

I have reached this conclusion after significant testing of the 7d which I am finding matches the 5d in a tabletop test but does not match it in the real world

Just my take - other methodolgies are equally valued

Rember most of the 7d hype was based around all the '24p will never come to the 5' BS spread by VLF, Canon, BLoom etc

At that point the 5 felt like a dead duck - but in a short time it will regain its wings as the king of the value DSLR hill

And of course you can control sound with ML

A further point on the two cams on which I am undecided is the ability to monitor your signal properly if I am correct a 5d running ML is ahead of the 7d on that front - but I may be wrong on that

S

 

[Stephen Mick]

I hope we're not taking this thread too far off topic, and Morgan makes some very good points on lens choices. One thing I've found, however, with the 5DII is that even some of the "best" lenses (specifically Canon's 85mm f1.4L and 50mm f1.2L) are soft wide open, and need to be stopped down for increased edge-to-edge sharpness, and where a 50mm f1.2 may show corner softness up to f1.8. But if you put that lens on a 7D, you get two advantages. One, the 7D chip only covers the sweet spot of the lens, so corner sharpness isn't an issue. And two, 50mm on the 7D is a closer match to 50mm on traditional 35mm motion picture film.

So, if the idea is to improve your craft as a cinematographer, wouldn't you want a field-of-view and DOF characteristics that more closely match the widely-used cinema standard?

And as far as monitoring goes, the HDMI feed from the 7D is higher-resolution than the 5DII, which is downscaled to 480p, I believe. The 7D outputs something like 1610x900, I think. I'm not sure what ML does on the 5D with regards to HDMI output.

 

[J Davis]

I believe both the 7D and the GH1 have HDMI (mini-connector) OUT, but both (again, I think) disable the camera's viewfinder while active. So you can't be framing up a shot with both the VF and the LCD, it's one or the other. (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.)

no live HDMI out on the GH1 (sorry to disappoint)

some other gotchas are
7D has no live histograms, and no electronic viewfinder so you can't judge the image after its adjusted by iso.

GH1 articulated screen means you can angle it to cut reflections when monitoring. this can make all the difference when getting focus right.

7D has the EOS utility which allows a laptop to function as a live monitor - awesome for pulling focus in a cine environment (as opposed to run & gun)

but as Steve said, 7D post leaves GH1 for dead.

 

[morgan_moore]

I hope we're not taking this thread too far off topic, and Morgan makes some very good points on lens choices. One thing I've found, however, with the 5DII is that even some of the "best" lenses .. are soft .

My point exactly - a cinematic look on the 5d comes from F4 to 5.6 - 1.2 lenses are actually pretty pointless IMO on the 5d you get a great look from a $100 35-70 3.5 maunal nikkor at F4, the 5d IMO looks stupid at 1.2 - not cinematic

With the 7d you want to be shooting at 2.8 or maybe 2, and you really need the best lenses for that - $5000 cine lenses designed for the job - cheap superwide zoom lenses are pretty weak at 2.8, weak enough IMO to have caused a lot of the 'my 7d is soft' chatter that we have seen on the net

So IMO you get the best budget cinematic look by shooting F4-5.6 on DSLR lenses with a 5d rather than with a cine sized sensor and non cine lenses

Edit : yes technically to learn the craft the lense choices are best with the 7 - true - but IMO to make pretty footage on a budget the 5 - IMO

S

 

[der4]

Just an FYI…

I've used the 720/60p mode extensively, and I wouldn't consider it overly "soft" or discount it at all.

If you're improving your craft, I'd say having 60p, 24p and 30p at your disposal is fairly important.

And if you want a "golden ticket" in a camera, you'll be waiting a long time.

I wouldn't buy a camera based on what it might do next year.

I own a 5DII because it IS the better still camera, though even that advantage isn't huge. If you can only own one, I say get the 7D. Like I said, you'll figure out what you NEED pretty quickly, as opposed to what you WANT.

Yes these are valid points. I do like to shoot at the middle range of the lens, and the 5D offers that. However, 60P is very nice to have for narrative filmmaking. I also like the 7D cinema aspect ration. Basically, as usual, both have strengths and weaknesses. I am actually considering just getting the 7D for now and buying the 5D when the 24P is implemented. Who knows what else will be released at that time?

What I really like about this thread is the straight forward well thought out comments everyone is making. Thank you, I appreciate it!

 

[der4]

1) even some of the "best" lenses (specifically Canon's 85mm f1.4L and 50mm f1.2L) are soft wide open, and need to be stopped down for increased edge-to-edge sharpness, and where a 50mm f1.2 may show corner softness up to f1.8.

"yes"

2) the 7D chip only covers the sweet spot of the lens, so corner sharpness isn't an issue.

"yes"

3) if the idea is to improve your craft as a cinematographer, wouldn't you want a field-of-view and DOF characteristics that more closely match the widely-used cinema standard?

"yes"

These three points are very good. You know the more I look at the DSLR cameras, the more excited I am to collect a few of them over time!

 

[der4]

After re-reading this thread I'm realizing that the 7D makes more sense. (especially since I will probably upgrade in the future.) Frankly, both make a lot of sense, but the 7D has cinematic aspect ratio, 60P, and 24P currently. For practicing my craft, this is all very practical. I think that the cost of these cameras is really only a part of a bigger picture. When I previously would buy gear, I bought the cheapest most popular indie products. Some of them are very good and others, well let's just say POOP. With all the little cheap items I used to buy I could have saved for some very nice equipment. I'm trying to think long term here. I guess my point is at $2000 for a camera, this is probably going to be the cheaper part of my camera package. So upgrading this camera is really not an issue compared to upgrading a matte box or follow focus system. I think that I'm going to buy higher quality accessories that will last a very long time and cut back on the camera, which makes the 7D look very attractive.


Canon EOS 7D SLR Digital Camera with 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM Lens $1900
Zoom $300
Cartoni F101 Focus Aluminum Tripod System - 100mm $1400
Zacuto Zwing away for matte box $400 http://store.zacuto.com/zwing-away-adapter.html
Zacuto Z-Finder $400
Arri MMB-1 Mattebox / Follow Focus Kit for Small HD Cameras $3500
Now I realize some may ask why the Arri MMB kit. I tend to use Matteboxes and a pull focus is really important. I like the cinevate review as well, but at the RED forum I read a lot of reviews by people that use higher end pull focuses. Both the Cinevate and the Arri MFF-1 look good. But I want a nice Mattebox. I've used a lot of under $1000 matte boxes and have been frustrated at the build quality. The Arri Kit makes it more affordable.

I look at it like this:
Follow Focus: Cinevate $1200
Mattbox (any lower brand): $1000
Rails: $500

Okay so now I'm within $800 to the Arri's set up, but I get a very nice featured Follow focus with a reputation and high build quality. Now when I upgrade to a higher end camera I will have a nice kit! Yes I will still need a light kit and Lenses (probably Zeiss as I like the color match and build quality) etc. But the quality of my system is going to pay off long term. I am up to $7500 plus small accessories, but accessories will be had over time. It just tends to happen based on the need of the shoot set up. I also will eventually buy lights and other nice items. I guess for me the big question is does the Arri Kit have a competitor? I've looked at other kits but haven't seen anything better for the price/quality ratio.

To those from the U.S. (and those that like to eat turkey) HAPPY THANKSGIVING!!!

 

[Stephen Mick]

You might also check out the RedRock Micro line of rails, matte box and follow focus. I owned one of their shoulder mounts, and it was solidly built.


www.redrockmicro.com

It might save you a bit of coin over the Zacuto/Arri combo, but I'm not sure.

 

[ydgmdlu]

Frankly, both make a lot of sense, but the 7D has cinematic aspect ratio, 60P, and 24P currently.

Just to be clear, the 7D has no more of a "cinematic aspect ratio" than the 5D does. "Aspect ratio" refers specifically to the ratio between the width of a frame and its height. Both the 7D and the 5D (and also the GH1) record an aspect ratio of 16:9 for HD. 16:9, which is sometimes expressed as 1.78:1, is not a particularly "cinematic" aspect ratio as it is most commonly found in the video world and rarely in the film world. In the film world, aspect ratios of 1.85:1, 2.35:1, 2.40:1, and 1.66:1 (European widescreen) are standard.

What the 7D has that the 5D doesn't is a more "cinematic" sensor size. A more generic term than "sensor size" is "image format size," since that encompasses non-electronic media, namely film. The 7D's sensor is 22.2mm wide. Academy 35mm (also called "regular 35mm" or "standard 35mm," as opposed to "Super 35mm") is 21.95mm wide. The 5D's full-frame sensor is 36mm wide. Big difference.

Let's get our terminology straight here.