Improving my craft with a DSLR?

D

der4

Active member
I'm weighing out the pros and cons of buying the HMC150 or a DSLR. I plan on spending no more then $7000.00 total on lighting and camera gear. I already have audio gear and an editing bay with Avid, FCP, and Vegas.

Think of this as my film school continuation, mostly shooting narrative shorts, as I almost completed film school until I changed majors. I want to improve my craft as a narrative filmmaker, but also want to become more technically savvy. I also plan on buying a lighting kit. I plan on mostly shooting no-profit youtube videos and online stuff, though I want the option of DVD distribution (HD would be nice for blueray). I plan on being a one band show, as I network to grow. I'm not doing this for money, but to improve my skills. I do however want my own gear, as I don't want the hassle of beg, borrowing, and stealing when I'm in the mood to shoot (atleast not the basic gear). My goal is to improve my skills as a cinematographer, gaffer, and director. I also plan on taking some part time classes at UCLA extension in cinematography. I plan on being a weekend bandit/shooter.

I like both DSLR's and the HMC150. What I like about the DSLR's is the option for lenses and follow focus etc. based on my budget. But the HMC150 does have a lot of benefits such as XLR inputs and various other meters etc. I just don't have the money to buy all the extra accessories for a HMC150 if I want to buy lights. Again, my main frustration is having lenses and pull focus.

I am okay with buying a better lighting kit at the expense of a higher quality camera if it is better for me to improve my craft on. Currently I plan on buying the following lighting kit:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/102962-REG/Arri_571884_Softbank_I_Tungsten_4.html

Based on this what camera set up would you buy?
 
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I have that same Arri Softbank Kit, except that it is not the 220 version. It is a few hundred dollars less, and it is an absolutely great light kit.
I put it up for sale in this forum months ago when I was selling off a lot of stuff, and it was one of the only things that didn't sell, and now I'm awfully glad I still have it.
Seamus+
 
The 7d with its S35 chip size is the tool to learn the craft

The camera itself is a little weak as a professional tool right now - but to practice the craft - perfect

As you invest in rig, FF etc you can always buy next years big thing DSLR body getting a few bucks on a trade of your 7d

The lenses etc you buy will stay with you for life if you get good ones

S
 
morgan_moore said:
As you invest in rig, FF etc you can always buy next years big thing DSLR body getting a few bucks on a trade of your 7d

The lenses etc you buy will stay with you for life if you get good ones
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These are great points. Sometimes I think people approach this decision as if the one product they buy today, is the one they'll be stuck with. Not usually so. Remember there's always ebay and craigslist. If something better comes along, you can migrate over to it. And as Morgan points out, the lenses can migrate over too...
 
Yes I can upgrade in the future!

Barry,
Based on my goals would you agree going with the DSLR makes more sense? I'm not shooting Event Videography or commercial projects, just looking to improve my cinematography skills with the best tools available within my budget. I'm also not doing this for a client (though I hope it will impress), rather weekend shooting for personal skill building. The one thing I like about the HMC150 is the extra perks, but I couldn't afford a complete package, rails, ff etc. and still get a good light kit. With the DSLR I would have more tools to practice my craft. I want a light kit that I can stick in an SUV and then pack away at the end of the day. (KISS is my current feelings regarding doing this.)

Thanks again everyone for your help! :)
 
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morgan_moore said:
The lenses etc you buy will stay with you for life if you get good ones
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Morgan,

You make a very good point regarding lenses. Based on my limited $7,000 budget wouldn't it be difficult to find a professional set of lenses, DSLR, FF, Tripod, lights etc.? What would you suggest for lenses? I think that the lens choices and a basic versatile lighting kit are key to a nice image as well.

Thanks again for your suggestions!
 
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Well I dont know exactly what you are trying to do - drama is very different from doco - staged and repeated

Lights are lights - easier to do on the cheap - worklights - whatever - they just shine light and they dont need precision in they way a camera or lens does - of course better ones are more handy to use - by a long way

Now your VDSLR will nearly shoot in the dark - its requirement for watts of lighting is low low low

I wouldnt be spending 50% of your budget on lights

What would I buy ?

20 2.8 nikkor, 50 .18 nikkor, 135 nikkor or maybe an 80-200 2.8 zoom

(why nikkor - because next years big cam might be a nikon - canon glass will never go on nikon)

Canon 5d

Some sticks

Then Id move to a FF and rails

Then Id move to lights

Just my opinion

Why a 5d ? because after the firmware it will be a better cam (imo) than the 7d and you are going to save a pile on getting a 20mm lens not a 14mm lens - also those primes have value that keeps

I have one kino flo light and three arri redheads - Ive never used the Arris because I dont have a crew, they are also highly 'specular' and hard to use in a naturalistic manner - Ive use the kino a few times

When I had an EX1 and adapter I had worklights - they were needed all the time

Mostly I might use a bit of silver insulation board for fill on daylight shoots $20 nowadays

S
 
morgan_moore said:
Well I dont know exactly what you are trying to do - drama is very different from doco - staged and repeated
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Mostly narrative, not documentaries.

Lights are lights - easier to do on the cheap - worklights - whatever - they just shine light and they dont need precision in they way a camera or lens does - of course better ones are more handy to use - by a long way
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Are you referring to Brand names? For me lights are part of setting the entire mood and exposure, helping tell the story. Perhaps I can look into a cheaper package, but I would like a kit.

Now your VDSLR will nearly shoot in the dark - its requirement for watts of lighting is low low low
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I'm very excited about this. Looking forward to being able to shoot in low light conditions.

20 2.8 nikkor, 50 .18 nikkor, 135 nikkor or maybe an 80-200 2.8 zoom

(why nikkor - because next years big cam might be a nikon - canon glass will never go on nikon)
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What about issues like color matching with different lenses and possible lens distortions? Would you buy them individually, used, new etc.?

Canon 5d
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This is a tough one for me. Deciding on the camera hmmmm... The cost of the Canon 5d is much more than the 7d isn't it? Plus I need to buy a ZOOM for my microphone system.


Then Id move to a FF and rails
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I know there are some cheap FF and rails out there. The redrock package looks pretty nice for the price?


Then Id move to lights
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I just don't see shooting without a reasonable light kit, but I guess I need to think about it.

Just my opinion
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Which I appreciate very much! :2vrolijk_08:

Why a 5d ? because after the firmware it will be a better cam (imo) than the 7d and you are going to save a pile on getting a 20mm lens not a 14mm lens - also those primes have value that keeps
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Does it come with a 20mm. Is there a thread comparison of all the DSLR's tech specs etc. It would be nice to have a sticky shoot out of the most popular ones. I haven't found one yet but it is probably in a thread here.

I have one kino flo light and three arri redheads - Ive never used the Arris because I dont have a crew, they are also highly 'specular' and hard to use in a naturalistic manner - Ive use the kino a few times
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I used to own cool light kinos. Have also used Kino Flows. Very nice lights. I just can't afford that and a decent tungsten versatile kit. I want at least a basic 3-4 light set up.

When I had an EX1 and adapter I had worklights - they were needed all the time
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I've never used a worklight setup. It seems very cheap and hard to use, though I'm sure someone here is brilliant at doing it!

Mostly I might use a bit of silver insulation board for fill on daylight shoots $20 nowadays
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I have used car reflectors etc. Yes I will want to bounce off light.
 
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Since your lenses will probably stay with you as you grow, you might want to look at the Zeiss ZF series. They are designed for Nikon but will easily mount to Canon with a good quality professional Nikon to Canon adapter like a Fotodiox F.
 
f64manray said:
Since your lenses will probably stay with you as you grow, you might want to look at the Zeiss ZF series. They are designed for Nikon but will easily mount to Canon with a good quality professional Nikon to Canon adapter like a Fotodiox F.
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Can you post a few links? Would you buy them used or new? In a set or individually? What about the color matching of the lenses?
 
I'm going to suggest the 7D over the 5d2. Full frame is nice, but the additional 30p and 60p framerates of the 7D are worth having for someone looking to improve their craft. It just gives you greater flexibility to experiment and try different things. And put the money you save into better lenses and audio gear.

-SM
 
As far as audio gear I have a Oktava MK-012 and a Audio-Technica AT835b boom microphone. I also have a Audio Technica PRO-88W Wireless Microphone System.

http://www.amazon.com/Audio-Technica-AT835b-Microphone/dp/B0002D093I

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000SMVH1G...e=asn&creative=380341&creativeASIN=B000SMVH1G

I know that the Audio Technica Microphones I have aren't great but perhaps for now they would do. What do you think? Again, I think I'll buy a Zoom recorder.

The good part is I have a nice boom pole with accessories. I would like better audio gear as well, but maybe I could wait on that since I already have a few things.

Okay, now for the DSLR body. I think that I can upgrade to a nicer unit in the future, so perhaps a GH1 or a 7D would work. If I did this I might be able to get better lenses.

Please tell me, with links etc., more suggestions regarding a decent lens kit. I would love to have a nice (value) lens set up. I also could use a nice comparison on the specs of these DSLR. I'll search and google but if you know any good write-ups please feel free to post.

Thanks Again! :)
 
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Having owned both the 7D and GH1 (and 5DII, for that matter), I give the nod to the 7D, but they're both awfully nice cameras. I lean to the 7D simply because of the slightly smoother 24p workflow it offers without having to remove pulldown. (Don't get scared by pulldown, it's not that big a deal, just something I prefer not having to deal with.) Since I work in FCP/Mac, the original 7D footage plays back fine in QuickTime Player, allowing me to easily review and convert only what I want to ProRes (for editing).

Basically, they're both fine choices for your needs.

As far as lenses go, primes are great, and you can get a good package of four or five lenses for relatively low cost. They'll be plenty fast, with great glass, no doubt. (I'm sure others will make some suggestions as to which lenses you should look at.)

But don't discount zoom lenses. If you go with the GH1, the kit zoom lens, while slow at f4+, covers a healthy zoom range (14-140) and, from my experience, is plenty sharp. On the Canon side, there are the highly-regarded 24-70 f2.8L (which I once owned and loved), the very underrated 24-105 f4L (which I now own and love), and the EF-S 17-55 f2.8 (which I also own and love). Why do I like these lenses?

Well, cameras like the 7D and GH1 shoot STILLS also! How about that?!? Seriously, though. The manual primes are great, and I highly suggest having at least one or two in your kit. But when/if you want to shoot stills, you might find yourself wanting some of the auto features you won't get out of the manual primes (auto-focus, aperture, etc.). I know I've been in situations where I needed to get a few stills quickly and in tough shooting conditions. Having a lens the camera can partially control made it easy.

It looks like your audio gear is headed in the right direction. You've got some decent microphones, and I think the Zoom H4N is a good call. Perhaps look into a small portable mixer (MixPre) to feed the Zoom. Generally, the preamps in the Zoom are regarded as adequate. A mixer will give you greater control over the feed into the Zoom. Also, having used the Zoom, don't be afraid to use the built-in microphones on it if you have to.

Finally, whatever camera, lenses and support gear you choose, I have to applaud your vision in seeing this gear as a way to continue an education in film/video. You seem to have a great attitude, are asking good questions, and, perhaps best of all, you seem to value the information you get from people like morgan_moore, manray and Martti.

Best of luck!
 
Thank you stephenmick. I love photography! I am actually a return student studying Computer Engineering in college (again) to learn how to design cinema digital cameras. In a couple more years I plan on completing a camera for my senior project. So yes I love this stuff.

I want to keep shooting as I love it for the artistic outlet (sometime science can get boring) and I need to keep up my craft if I'm going to design cameras. I have a lot to learn still and appreciate all of your help!

I read some of this thread regarding GH1 vs Canon 7d:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=185898

I must say that this is an exciting time for me to re-enter the market. Wow, people are arguing over which is best instead of "is digital as good as film." I love it. I feel a little spoiled, for the first time I actually have some very reasonable choices.

I have read a lot of reviews about the 7D. It seems to be the camera that has the buzz. For me the 24P and 60P overcranking options sound perfect. I definitely like slow motion shots. I also think it seems to be in a good price range for building a kit around it. I must say that the Panasonic HV40 is a really cool camera for the price. I might just buy one at some point for video event work.

I think I want to go with interchangeable lenses. I also like the small form factor for catching indie shots in L.A. and when I travel! :) This camera seems to be a good starting point. However, I'm trying to look at all my options, and not just buy the most popular camera. I want to make sure it works for my needs.

Question for the GH1 and D7:

Do they have video out? If so what type of output? I happen to own a Lilliput VGA HD Monitor that I never installed in my car.

I think I can start a list as the DSLR seems to make sense for my current needs.

I'm going to search this forum for suggestions but I think I can start a list. I'm sure it will add up pretty quick:
DSLR Camera.
Lcdvf
Tripod
Mattbox w/rails (I'm sure I need the rails at least for stabilization)
FF Unit Kit (Redrock still the best for the money?)
Steadicam (someday)
Dolly (someday, indie dolly still the best for the money?)
Little Jib/Crane (someday, Cobra crane still good for the money?)
Zoom ( really like the Edirol R44)
Lenses (This is the biggest questionable cost versus quality for me)


Thanks again everyone for your help.
 
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I believe both the 7D and the GH1 have HDMI (mini-connector) OUT, but both (again, I think) disable the camera's viewfinder while active. So you can't be framing up a shot with both the VF and the LCD, it's one or the other. (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.)

From a "list" standpoint, here's where I would start, in order of priority…

HDSLR (7D or GH1)
Lens or Lenses
Filters (UV, Neutral Density or possibly a Fader-ND or Vari-ND)
Tripod (with quality fluid head action, not some cheap POS to save money)
Audio Recorder (Zoom H4N, Edirol R-44 or Marantz PMD661)
LCDVF (Zacuto Z-Finder or similar)
Portable Field Audio Mixer (Sound Devices MixPre or similar)
Lighting (not sure what you'll need, but don't forget about this)

Then I'd move on to the rest of your list. And don't get too much stuff too quickly. Start small, with just the camera, lenses, tripod and sound gear. Add to your kit over time, because after you've spent time shooting with the gear you'll likely discover things you need that aren't on your list (a slider-type device maybe) and things you don't need or want.

And remember, rentals can be your friend. Buy only those things that make sense to buy, and that hold their value. Good lenses depreciate very slowly, so spend more money here if you can. Truly amazing lenses can be had through rentals as well, which opens a world of possibilities without breaking the bank. (In fact, www.lensrentals.com rents the 5D, the 7D, the GH1 and just about any lens you might want, meaning you can try before you buy.)

--SM
 
Why the 5d, why nikkors ?

The 5d is getting 25/24p sometime soonish

60p on the 7 is fairly terrible IMO

Once that upgrade comes out both cameras will effectively have 30,25,24P

Chip size and wide angle

a 20mm nikkor prime you should get a used one for $300

To get a similar wide on the 7d you need a 14mm they are more like $1000 used

That makes a difference to the gap in price between the cameras smaller - the 5d pays for itself in cheap long lasting glass

OK you can get your ultra wide tamron zoom lenses for the 7d but the performance is going to be nothing like a 20mm nikkor on a 5d, the consumer wide zooms have barrel distrotion and CA a plaenty and are not that sharp wide open - nothing like a 20mm nikkor at F4 or 5.6


Remember the small chip demands more resolution and less chromatic aberation from your lenses

And there is diffraction - the 7d collapses at f8 so to keep shooting at 4 or 5.6 you are going to need a pile of ND filtration - which softens you image- and may mean a Matte box - the 5 does not fall apart in the same way - its that big chip

Zeiss - well maybe but you are trying to do this on a budget, you wont find them knocking around in the bargain basement

Lenses I have bought recently

nikkor 35-70 manual - £69
nikkor 100-300 manual £89

Given a 50 1.8 - do you need this ($100? )
and a 20 2.8 ($300)

You are set to make your feature on $500 or $600 of glass that will sell for $500 or $600 or maybe $1000

They are really great performing bits of glass - really beautiful engineering - smooooth to focus - from a time when nikons were owned by pros not soccer moms - ok they are 3.5 and 5.6 but that doesnt matter on the 5d where you need to stop down a little to make your work look like cinema not blurry cam

Your route to zeiss is olympus lenses I guess

It is OK to think you need lighting, a dolly a crane a jib - but think about using this stuff, crew, set up time, permits, a truck to carry it in

I would say learn to make film in a minimal manner , minimal rigging, minimal light - find natural light and learn to fill it reflectors or work lights reflected off a board

Vincent lafloet lit reverie in parts with a torch - you need a 5d for that light perfromance IMO

Rentals? you are adding more budget, workflow, organisation, delays, deposits - this will all affect your product - your film - and not in a good way

IMO the 5d once the firmware is about is a cam that will reveal the golden ticket that it is

(BTW I have a 7d and a 5d and many many lenses both canon L, Sigma, Tokina, and heaps of nikkors)

Moving off a budget with the 5 I would say 24-105, 70-200 L glass

S
 
Morgan,

Thank you. You have made some very valid points especially regarding the lenses. So what can you do with the D5 to pull slow motion out of it? I also think that my lighting kit is going to have to wait until I get my camera kit complete. I do however have a connection on some used lights that I think will work. I also don't think buying any other audio gear is necessary yet as I'm focusing on my cinematography and lighting first. I must say that your points are very convincing and I am reconsidering the D5.

What about the video out on the D5? Does it have DVI and RGB? I need to go read about it again.

Also, I think that I'm going to get a Cartoni Focus 2-stage system. People on this board seem very happy with it.

So basically I'm looking at a possible D5 camera kit:


D5 $2700 +-
Zoom $300
Cartoni: $1400
Nikkor: $600
FF, Rails, Media etc.: $2000 (Cinevate's Durus Follow Focus maybe)
Focus Monitor: I didn't realize I had it. I sold a lot of gear a few years ago but I still have an IKAN 8000HD though it doesn't have DVI, darn! I'm considering upgrading the monitor to a Marshal.
I have a nice pelican case, light meter, and other extras.

Basically I get a camera kit without the extras. Again I have editing equipment and audio. I guess I'll have to shell out a little more money for the lights.

I have decided that quality really counts. I don't want to buy a bunch of cheap accessories only to shell out more in the next year because I'm not satisfied. I really don't want to waist money. I also like the idea of using this as a video/still camera and then buying a video format camera at some point in the future. Then I have quality gear for both. That way I can use the DSLR when it works better. Of course I won't be buying another camera anytime soon. What does everyone think?
 
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remember other people with think other things some of them valid - but I think people are not thinking properly the relationship between lenses and cameras in term of cost, quality and useability

slomo - 30/24 is the fastest, if you discount the soft 720/60 from the 7d most cams in this range dont do slomo the 720/60 is OK from the EX1

120 FPS is where real slomo starts and that is Viper and Red land

S
 
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