Brandon Freeman
Well-known member
Yeah, I think I grasp the basic concept. I just didn't want to type all that out to get the basic answer.
I'm so sorry to do this...
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Yeah, I think I grasp the basic concept. I just didn't want to type all that out to get the basic answer.
Brandon Freeman
Well-known member
Haha, yeah, that's the sucky thing about being on a budget and raising a young family. I have to make hard decisions and can't afford to keep both.
I actually really like the 7D's color renderings, nay, love. But the one thing that I find ironic is that before these DSLRs, without a honking huge 35mm adapter, I was stuck on the deep end of the DOF pool. Now, with the 7D's deep DOF issues, I'm stuck on the shallow side.I'm looking for something that paddles me from one to the other without too much hassle. From what I'm seeing, it ain't perfect, but it's darn near it for the money with the GH2. Still a touch of aliasing, but no magic purple/orange psychedelics to be found...
Of course, in a perfect world, I'd have a 5D, a GH2, an EPIC, and a good ol' 35mm Panavision camera with an infinite supply of film to boot.
DanDOF
Well-known member
Well I politely totally disagree with you. Psychologically and technically the Depth of Field will be LESS or MORE shallow depending on crop size. See the following chart:
Resources on DOF and Crop Factor
See page 10 of:
http://www.zeiss.com/C12567A8003B8B6...5_Bokeh_en.pdf
On the other hand, I agree that shallow DOF is not always desirable, or a necessary element for a cinematic experience. As this guy said:
Are we still stuck on this shallow mentality? (pun by accident hehe)
I need bigger aperture to light some situations more naturally (I also need the GH2 sensor with less noise as well).
With S35 sensors I like to work at around f4 for situations I have plenty of light... When I put the lens at f2 I start to think the blur looks just awful, specially when there's plenty of information in the background... Unless you're trying to hide bad art direction but that's another situation.
Shot in FHD with the 14-140 lens at 140mm, obviously at f5.8:
Just look at this from this perspective: If your goal is to focus attention on the actors it's a good start not to draw attention to how blurred the background is... :thumbsup:
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All the video I've shot with my GH13 and seen from 7D and even 5DmkII hasn't shown a quality difference. The 7D's DOF is indistinguishable, and the difference between 5DmkII and GH1 is noticeable, but honestly I only notice it when 5DmkII owners have the DOF TOO shallow (excessively shallow DOF is one of my pet-peeves, unless you have to shoot in poor lighting and are forced to open the iris that wide).
Brandon Freeman
Well-known member
Well, I think I'm going to wait until things are more clear on the blue banding issues and the HDMI recording. Fact is, the 7D is also/primarily a still camera, so I don't think it's going to lose value overnight upon the arrival of the GH2. And, I do use the 7D regularly, so I can't go without a camera for a while...
I might end up trying to simply save up for the GH2 and keep both units around... I've got almost $400 so far!
I might end up trying to simply save up for the GH2 and keep both units around... I've got almost $400 so far!
HKO
Well-known member
With respect unless you are being ironic - this is slightly unfair. The 5D 24p and manual firmware updates were because they did listen to the market. Do they have corporate inertia - perhaps - but they do listen. Maybe not like RED but you cannot be all things to all people as a huge international business can you? RED have even had to redefine who they are because of this problem.
And I agree with Brandon. Products don't automatically lose their usefulness when a new product supersedes it. The market value comes down but not the usefulness. You can shoot with the 7D until it dies on you.
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Ian-T
Veteran
Yeah but the way dasbin explained it also makes sense. From what it looks like, in the way you explain it, that would be true if one were trying to obtain the same FOV with all of the cameras. But in the way dasbin explained it (or how I understood it) to get similar bokeh on all of the cameras the field of view would end up being different (much wider on the 5Dll than the 7D/GH-1). That's why his simple example of taking a 5Dll image and cropping it makes sense.
So, to answer the OP's question ("how much shallow depth of field will I be losing switching from the 7D's sensor to the GH2's smaller sensor?")
none ....the DOF should be the same but what would change is the FOV.
LOL,7D was released because people wanted 1080p in 24 fps,they included 24p in 5D IV,they do listen and they listen very carefully.
Too bad that now people want more and more and more for free,but its like that with everything.If canon would add manual audio gain then peolpe would want them to fix aliasing and moire,if they would fix this people would want 4k recording ,if canon would do that people would want HD 1080p output,if they would do that some people would want full sensor recording,theres a lot of stuff to request and ask for but canon would not have to do anything really,but they did and they made A LOT of people happy when they released 24p for 5D IV,ive never seen anything like it before.
Picturequest
Well-known member
Okay, so can someone calculate say the difference of a 50mm 1.8 on DX vs. m43? I mean at say 5 feet from subject, to match the frame exactly, you'd have to step back to 6 feet for m43 to match 5 feet with a DX.
Example. An 85mm is great for 35mm portraits, but converts to 170mm with a cropped m43 (2x)). But if you have the space you can get the same composition if you step back, "x" feet.
Thanks
Example. An 85mm is great for 35mm portraits, but converts to 170mm with a cropped m43 (2x)). But if you have the space you can get the same composition if you step back, "x" feet.
Thanks
It doesn't actually work like that. Stepping back or forward does NOT have the same effect on an image as using a different lens focal length to approximate that view. It ONLY has the same effect for a single (non-existant in the real world) 2-dimensional plane. Anything in front of or behind that plane will be of different size and perspective.
Using a different (longer) lens DOES have the same effect as cropping an image made with a wider lens from that same location.
In the real world, this means that taking one photo of a subject from far away will show much less FOV of the background behind that subject, than taking a photo with a wide lens close-up to a subject. The subject may be (approximately) the same size (or at least one part of their face will be - ears, nose etc may be stretched out) but the background will not.
That is why the only way to think about compensating for crop factor is with lenses, not movement.
Using a different (longer) lens DOES have the same effect as cropping an image made with a wider lens from that same location.
In the real world, this means that taking one photo of a subject from far away will show much less FOV of the background behind that subject, than taking a photo with a wide lens close-up to a subject. The subject may be (approximately) the same size (or at least one part of their face will be - ears, nose etc may be stretched out) but the background will not.
That is why the only way to think about compensating for crop factor is with lenses, not movement.
Well I don't totally understand what's going on in this chart because not everything is labeled.
But what you said is *only* true for a given field-of-view (composition). If you match a composition with a different crop factor, DOF will change. But if you only match *lenses* with a different crop factor, DOF stays the same.
Think about it for a second. The only thing that's changing is the size of the sensor - this is the same as looking at a photo and adding or removing information from the 4 edges. You can crop a photo from a larger-sensor camera to exactly match what a photo with the same lens will look like on a smaller-sensor camera. DOF does *not* change here - why on earth would it? There is no magical DOF fairy that looks at the size of your sensor and sprinkles magic dust on your backgrounds based on what it sees.
This is why crop-factor questions are a bit strange to me - if you're coming from a larger-sensor camera, you already know what the DOF will look like - just use the lenses you'll be using on the smaller camera. Crop them if you need to see the FOV change you'll get with that lens.