IATSE - 10 Days To Go

[ahalpert]

Thanks for the extended notes. But they don't address the points I'm interested in.

1 - Since it was too long ago, and you were young, my first question is moot. What symbolism did you observe the first time you saw it?
2 - But let's ignore that question and pretend you did see the symbolism. What do you get out of seeing the symbolism. Maybe that's not the way to phrase it. How does symbolism enhance the movie?
3. Regardless of whether you saw the symbolism or not, what's the point of it? Yes, you explained "the symbolism is significant because it contextualizes how the storytellers view the character." ....... To what end? What value does that have..... that Luke is like Christ?
4. Ok, this one is a stretch - What percentage of people do you think observed this symbolism the first time they saw the movie?

1. I think what I noticed the first time I saw it was Luke's speaking to God in the church before he was shot, the crucifix pose, the crossroads at the end, and the Jesus music. Particularly those first two pieces are hard to miss. I couldn't say if I noticed more than that. Some things, like the egg connection, I definitely only put together now.

2. What do I get from exploring the symbolism? Well, what do I get from watching movies in the first place? Movies are wholly symbolic. You're looking at patterns of light on a screen that represent people and things. Those people are characters, not real people.

I don't make a big distinction between what happens on a metaphorical level and what happens on a "literal" level. It's all a continuum of meaning. Some of it are just loose references. But the major political/philosophy content tends to play out on the metaphorical level rather than the literal level. At least in a good movie.

Take a movie like Star Wars. You've got the red and blue crossed lightsabers where the blue represents good and the red evil.


Darth Vader means "dark father" (darth a "variation" of dark and vader related to the German or Dutch word for father). So, that's the character's literal name...and also his relation to Luke.

He wears a dark skeleton-like mask that obscures his eyes (like the Man With No Eyes in Cool Hand Luke). Yes, that's his chosen costume for the means of intimidating his enemies. But it also is a loud signal to the audience that he's the bad guy.

(Did you ever see the Mitchell & Webb "are we the baddies" sketch?)

Use of the word "stormtrooper" and some aspects of fascist design and iconography clearly inspired by the Nazis, as well as the idea of racial supremacy.




The rebellion was based on the Viet Cong. And of course the death star is a metaphor/reference to the atomic bomb.

It's a big mix.

And that's before we talk about the influence of Arthurian legend on the story. But, to be fair, I think those influences are so deeply embedded in Western literature by this point that they can't be teased out.

3. I feel like I answered that already. But basically it makes you think and it makes you feel.

4. I don't give a rat's posterior how many people caught the Christ allegory in Cool Hand Luke. But I'm guessing that it stood out more clearly to people who have spent time studying the New Testament, which in the US is a whole lot of people. And I'd reiterate that this was not some buried, hard-to-catch symbolism. This was loud and clear. And you can read numerous essays discussing it online. https://www.google.com/search?q=chr...gyNjIwajBqN6gCALACAA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

I don't think that you and Doug are in the majority here.

I really don't think it matters if someone "gets" the references or understands the symbolism. These things are a reflection of the writer's worldview and inform their process. Kids with no knowledge of 20th century history can watch Star Wars (or whatever the latest installment is) and ponder the nature of good and evil.

Few viewers of Star Wars probably make the connection between John Williams' soundtrack and Gustav Holst's Planets suite. Of course, they don't really need to. That's not the point. Incidentally, Mars is one of the few pieces of orchestral music I listen to regularly. Here's a comparison of Williams and Holst. The climax of A New Hope vs the end of Mars.

Likewise, not necessary to grasp the similarities to The Hidden Fortress to enjoy the film.

 

[Paul F]

Holy smokes Abe. Your world is so different than mine. We would have to sit face-to-face to continue this discussion. There are parts of your brain running that I don't even have.

 

[ahalpert]

Holy smokes Abe. Your world is so different than mine. We would have to sit face-to-face to continue this discussion. There are parts of your brain running that I don't even have.

I mean, I think that these references and influences largely reflect writers drawing on stories and material they know and like. It's not something that's necessary to recognize in order to enjoy their work. For example, there are also elements of Christ figure in Star Wars or in the Matrix. (There's a special savior who will come along and rescue us. In each case, they fall and rise again.) But it's a weak signal and I don't think the stories are meant to be taken as Christ allegory. In contrast, I think that the makers of Cool Hand Luke were hoping that the parallel would come across.

 

[Paul F]

Well now I think you are Christ fixated. Christ isn't the only figure with those themes. Star Wars was GWL's version of Flash Gordon, which he saw as a child. You must know Joseph Campbell. Have you read his book? They became good buddies after they met in 1984, after the first three Star Wars. Through Campbell, George goes on to find the themes he wrote in SW are played over and over again in religions and mythology through Campbell's research.

 

[Doug Jensen]

Even cutting the heads off parking meters has a vague parallel to throwing the money changers out.
Destroying the parking meters to "free" parking.

Wow, you are really grasping at straws now. There is absolutely nothing in the film to indicate Luke was an advocate for free downtown parking. Let alone that he was so committed to the cause of "Free Parking" that he was willing to take matters into his own hands and go to jail for it. If you are correct, I wonder why Luke didn't launch into a campaign speech about "Free Parking" when the captain asked him what he thought cutting off the heads of parking meters would get him. Seems like that would have been a perfect time to make his case to the guards and fellow prisoners.

"I have a dream that one day all men will be able to park on a busy downtown street without regard to financial status or color of vehicle". -- Luke

I'm no psychologist, but I will say it again, you have all they symptoms of apophenia: the tendency to perceive meaningful connections between unrelated things.

 

[Doug Jensen]

The problem with the Christ story is that it is itself just a piece of fiction. So, what you get is later fiction referencing another piece of fiction that also contains many of the most basic themes that make stories interesting. Imagine how boring fiction would be if it did NOT contain themes of life, death, betrayal, struggle of the underdog, self-sacrifice, brotherhood, murder, persecution, redemption, struggle between good an evil, love, the purpose of life, etc.? All that stuff goes back thousands of years through mythology and other religions, long before the Jesus story.

Just because the bible writers put down those themes first on paper first doesn't mean they get exclusivity or that the bible needs to be referenced as source material for every other interesting story that came later and also dealt with life, death, betrayal, struggle of the underdog, self-sacrifice, brotherhood, murder, persecution, redemption, struggle between good an evil, love, the purpose of life,

I'll never understand how that so-called symbolism of referencing another work enhances one's enjoyment of other literature, art, or film. Things should be able to stand on their own.

It gets especially silly when people, many of whom suffer from apophenia, try to find symbolism that was never intended by the creator of the work in question. For example, having two different colored light sabers just looks good on film. The idea that one color is more evil than another color is just dumb and pretentious. Or that a road crew working near the interestion of two roads is supposed to represent a cross.

I do agree, however, that Luke laying on the table does look like the typical fictional depiction of Jesus on the cross. How could anyone miss it? The shot is so heavy-handed even a 5th grader ought to catch it. But so what? It doesn't enhance the movie one iota. It was just a cool way to end the scene.

Personally, I don't see any parralels between the life of Luke and Jesus. One character is clearly a self-centered a-hole that brings down misery on himself for no greater purpose than his own conceit. And the other story is about a person devoted to love, sacrifice, redemption, etc. who is persecuted for his beliefs. Two totally different stories. There's no overlap between the two characters no matter how many shots the filmmakers want to throw in of Luke looking like he is being crucified or sunglasses getting run over.

Artists who attempt to use symbolism are really just: 1) Taking lazy shortcuts to telling their story by referencing an earlier work. 2) Attempting to add greater importance or merit than their work actually possesses. 3) Being pretentious.

Thankfully, a good story, such as Cool Hand Like, will always stand on its own without some pseudo-intellectual with apohenia nudging you in the ribs and saying, "hey, doesn't this remind you of something else really important that came before it."

 

[ahalpert]

Well now I think you are Christ fixated. Christ isn't the only figure with those themes. Star Wars was GWL's version of Flash Gordon, which he saw as a child. You must know Joseph Campbell. Have you read his book? They became good buddies after they met in 1984, after the first three Star Wars. Through Campbell, George goes on to find the themes he wrote in SW are played over and over again in religions and mythology through Campbell's research.

The influences on Star Wars don't boil down to one source. For example, when I recently rewatched the entirety of Star Trek TOS, I was shocked by how many lines were lifted almost verbatim into Star Wars. Not to mention the concept of the Death Star, which comes from a particular episode. (The "planet killer" in The Doomsday Machine)

But the fact is that Christianity is the unifying ideology in the entire Western Hemisphere. I'm an atheist Jew. I'm not a believer. But nearly any story about a savior or redemptive suffering or resurrection is probably going to owe at least some small debt to the story of Christ which we all know so well and, by virtue of repetition, just makes sense to us.

In the Matrix, someone jokingly calls Neo his "own personal Jesus Christ". But I know that there's a broad hodgepodge of influences that went into the matrix, including a lot of specific 20th century philosophy.

 

[ahalpert]

Wow, you are really grasping at straws now. There is absolutely nothing in the film to indicate Luke was an advocate for free downtown parking. Let alone that he was so committed to the cause of "Free Parking" that he was willing to take matters into his own hands and go to jail for it. If you are correct, I wonder why Luke didn't launch into a campaign speech about "Free Parking" when the captain asked him what he thought cutting off the heads of parking meters would get him. Seems like that would have been a perfect time to make his case to the guards and fellow prisoners.

"I have a dream that one day all men will be able to park on a busy downtown street without regard to financial status or color of vehicle". -- Luke

I'm no psychologist, but I will say it again, you have all they symptoms of apophenia: the tendency to perceive meaningful connections between unrelated things.

That is the outcome of destroying parking meters. Nobody will be able to or be required to pay. Until they're fixed.

He could have gone to jail for any number of acts of vandalism. Breaking windows on city hall. Spray painting graffiti. Etc. But this is the one the writer chose.

 

[Doug Jensen]

He could have gone to jail for any number of acts of vandalism . . . but this is the one the writer chose.

EXACTLY MY POINT.
The writer could have chosen any non-violent, non-personal, nearly victimless crime to get Luke incarcerated. But he chose cutting off the heads of parking meters. That's it. There is no deeper meaning to be found nor is it necessary. It is just a plot device to get him sent to jail for something most viewers would consider a minor crime that wasn't for profit or malice. Please stop saying it had some parallel with Christ. Sometimes a parking meter is just a parking meter.

 

[Doug Jensen]

That is the outcome of destroying parking meters. Nobody will be able to or be required to pay. Until they're fixed.

That is the outcome of his actions . . . not the reason for his actions. Big difference. Come on Abe, you are too smart to make dumb arguments like that. Put more effort into it.

 

[ahalpert]

The problem with the Christ story is that it is itself just a piece of fiction. So, what you get is later fiction referencing another piece of fiction that also contains many of the most basic themes that make stories interesting. Imagine how boring fiction would be if it did NOT contain themes of life, death, betrayal, struggle of the underdog, self-sacrifice, brotherhood, murder, persecution, redemption, struggle between good an evil, love, the purpose of life, etc.? All that stuff goes back thousands of years through mythology and other religions, long before the Jesus story.

Just because the bible writers put down those themes first on paper first doesn't mean they get exclusivity or that the bible needs to be referenced as source material for every other interesting story that came later and also dealt with life, death, betrayal, struggle of the underdog, self-sacrifice, brotherhood, murder, persecution, redemption, struggle between good an evil, love, the purpose of life,

I'll never understand how that so-called symbolism of referencing another work enhances one's enjoyment of other literature, art, or film. Things should be able to stand on their own.

It gets especially silly when people, many of whom suffer from apophenia, try to find symbolism that was never intended by the creator of the work in question. For example, having two different colored light sabers just looks good on film. The idea that one color is more evil than another color is just dumb and pretentious. Or that a road crew working near the interestion of two roads is supposed to represent a cross.

I do agree, however, that Luke laying on the table does look like the typical fictional depiction of Jesus on the cross. How could anyone miss it? The shot is so heavy-handed even a 5th grader ought to catch it. But so what? It doesn't enhance the movie one iota. It was just a cool way to end the scene.

Personally, I don't see any parralels between the life of Luke and Jesus. One character is clearly a self-centered a-hole that brings down misery on himself for no greater purpose than his own conceit. And the other story is about a person devoted to love, sacrifice, redemption, etc. who is persecuted for his beliefs. Two totally different stories. There's no overlap between the two characters no matter how many shots the filmmakers want to throw in of Luke looking like he is being crucified or sunglasses getting run over.

Artists who attempt to use symbolism are really just: 1) Taking lazy shortcuts to telling their story by referencing an earlier work. 2) Attempting to add greater importance or merit than their work actually possesses. 3) Being pretentious.

Thankfully, a good story, such as Cool Hand Like, will always stand on its own without some pseudo-intellectual with apohenia nudging you in the ribs and saying, "hey, doesn't this remind you of something else really important that came before it."

Whatever the opposite of apophenia is is what you have.

Only Sith have red lightsabers, and the Force wielders of the Dark Side have no other color blade.

Why Are Sith Lightsabers Red?

Jedi have so many options, but Sith lightsabers are always red.

collider.com

My recollection of the original films is that the good guys had blue or green lightsabers and Vader's was red. Red is the color of blood. Blue is water and green is foliage. In other words, red is the color of death. Blue and green are the colors of life.

You keep referring to shots as "cool" without discussing why they're cool. They're cool because of the emotional impact generated by the associative meaning.

When we reference prior works, we build upon their meaning. Like a shorthand. It makes the material more dense. Like if you're looking at a diagram of electronic equipment and somewhere it has a symbol and the word "Li-ion battery." It doesn't need to show the design and workings of the battery because you already know it. You save time and space by just referencing it.

There's a line in a rap song I like that goes, "when they flooded the streets with crack cocaine, I was like Noah..." And then all the ideas you have about that story come to bear on his situation.

There's the Christ story, Job story, Noah, Moses. Many archetypes. I like to reference the story of Jacob to indicate that sometimes you get screwed and have to work twice as hard as you expected.

I don't think the bible was the first to do any of these story types. It's just the best known (to us).

It really doesn't matter if the stories you're referencing are fiction or non-fiction.

Cool Hand Luke is one of the most explicit and thorough Christ allegories in cinema. Getting you to analyze the differences between the two characters probably achieves the filmmakers' goal in that regard, although I don't think they shared your conclusion.

 

[ahalpert]

EXACTLY MY POINT.
The writer could have chosen any non-violent, non-personal, nearly victimless crime to get Luke incarcerated. But he chose cutting off the heads of parking meters. That's it. There is no deeper meaning to be found nor is it necessary. It is just a plot device to get him sent to jail for something most viewers would consider a minor crime that wasn't for profit or malice. Please stop saying it had some parallel with Christ. Sometimes a parking meter is just a parking meter.

A good story doesn't waste opportunities to develop its theme. You could see the parking meters as a representative of the monetary economy. Or perhaps it's best seen as a timekeeping device. After all, Luke said he was just "passing time" in the army and the warden says "well, you've got yourself some time now. Two years." And the meter counts how much time you have left of what you paid for.

In any case, his crime is significant to the story and a significant opportunity to develop the theme. It's far less trivial than the color of someone's hat, for example.

The most basic importance is that it's a random, unusual petty crime that has no gain for Luke. But there are lots of options that would foot that bill.

 

[ahalpert]

That is the outcome of his actions . . . not the reason for his actions. Big difference. Come on Abe, you are too smart to make dumb arguments like that. Put more effort into it.

I think you're taking it too literally. I'm not saying that Luke was trying to be a political reformer. I'm saying that if you ask why he would do this and what are some of the results of doing it, these are some of the answers you get.

Put that together with what you know about his time in the army and his conduct in prison and you start to get a clearer picture of his philosophy.

 

[ahalpert]

Also, the reference to Freud's statement that "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar" -- Freud wasn't saying lay off the symbolic analysis. There is no greater analyst than he. He was saying that not EVERY phallic object is a phallic reference. (But I think this statement was made in reference to a question about his own cigar habit. So he was basically trying to say that he's not gay.)

But the difference between cinema/literature and dreams/reality is that the former is a type of symbolic language constructed for the communication of meaning. It's artificial and completely intentional. I don't read symbols or signs in real life.

 

[Doug Jensen]

Whatever the opposite of apophenia is is what you have.

It's called common sense. And thank you , I appreciate the compliment. You made my day.

 

[ahalpert]

It's called common sense. And thank you , I appreciate the compliment. You made my day.

"Randomania: when a pattern exists but you fail to notice it"

 

[ahalpert]

George Lucas to Sam Jackson: "good guys are green and blue. Bad guys are red. That's just the way it works."

Sam Jackson: "can I get purple?"

 

[Doug Jensen]

George Lucas to Sam Jackson: "good guys are green and blue. Bad guys are red. That's just the way it works."

That's not symbolism. It is just a way to help the audience quickly identify the two different sides. The actual color that each side was assigned is irrelevant. If you reversed the light saber colors, you'd have the exact same movie.

When Lucas says "that's just the way it works." He is referring to each side being assigned a team color, not that the colors themselves have any significance. You are reading stuff into that isn't there. But then again, you are a chronic sufferer of apophenia, so it is to be expected.

In case you have never noticed it before, whenever two sports teams battle it out on the playing field they each have different colored uniforms. Even in war, each side typically has a different colored uniform. It really helps everyone involved tell one side from the other, but the colors themselves are irrelevant.

BTW, white is usually associated with purity, perfection, honesty, and cleanliness. "White is clean, simple, and pure. It stands in stark opposition to black, and its meanings are unequivocal. As white light contains all the colors of the spectrum, it’s an inclusive, impartial color, favoring no single hue and refusing to take sides." https://www.sensationalcolor.com/meaning-of-white/

The Storm Troopers are dressed in white. If Lucas was concerned with symbolism they would have been in some other color.
Your theory about colors is bunk.

 

[Doug Jensen]

Also, the reference to Freud's statement that "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar" -- Freud wasn't saying lay off the symbolic analysis. There is no greater analyst than he. He was saying that not EVERY phallic object is a phallic reference. (But I think this statement was made in reference to a question about his own cigar habit. So he was basically trying to say that he's not gay.)

I wasn't referring to Freud.
So, once again, you are making connections that were unintended by whomever made the statement/film/literature/art. Your mind craves finding a deeper meaning even when there is none intended.

 

[Doug Jensen]

1 in 12 men has some form of color blindness. So, according your theory, 12% of the male audience that watches a Star Wars movie can't fully appreciate the film at the level Lucas intended, right?