C100: I need a New Look for 2017. What's your fave interview lens besides the 70-200?

Stream of consciousness thoughts for the day:

STANDS:
Doubledark: (What’s your name stranger?) I believe Manfrotto changed the design slightly but this seems to be their spooning stands now, which they call their “quick stack system”. Here's the type of bag I use where they stack nicely, plus when traveling I keep a few more in the side pockets of the tripod bag:

https://www.manfrotto.us/black-alu-ac-compact-stand-78-3-sections-2-risers


CARRY ON:
Eric, in terms of carry on, I never meant to imply I would bring a tripod case or stands for putting into the overhead. In fact, most all crew members I use would consider me a total paranoic, but I have every right to be, based on experience. What I mean is I pack with the thought that whatever I have checked may not make it, or catch up to me for a couple of days, so what I bring on board is “enough” to at least do exteriors, b-roll and run ’n gun style interviews. Being based in Chicago, I often have to board a flight at the point where most of the overheads are already taken. I have a lens bag that has the monitor, batts, chargers, 2 lavs, 2 XLR cables, Senn boom, ear buds, lenses, etc., and if the flight attendant says there’s no overhead spaces left, I take the 70-200 out and she can check the bag, I now have on me everything I need for getting at least something done. I remove the 70-200 so the baggage handlers can't steal it. I always carry on the camera fully assembled (without the Franken rig) and it has the 24-105, 2 32GB cards and a full batt and also my Tumi briefcase with the laptop. I often am not in charge of booking the flights and if the bookers schedule the connections too tight, and my first flight is delayed, the transfer of the baggage doesn't occur, so I am in the location city without my checked bags. This has happened many times and over the years I have had to go to Home Depot, buy a 3200 degree kelvin construction light on a stand, then go to Hobby Lobby and buy a piece of 4x4 white foam core, and I was in business for a bounce light the next morning. Necessity is the mother of invention.

International flights are always more concerned with the weight of our bags, I suppose because of the fuel cost to go so far? Also security, they take flights over the oceans much more seriously I've noticed. A few years ago I was seated on a BA flight in Heathrow ready to take off and some cops came on and asked me to step off the plane to “explain something”. The X-ray folks caused an alarm. They had my personal suitcase, which always has some gear in it, and they showed me the X-ray and asked where they could find this “item”. Turns out, there was a full bar of Irish Spring soap laying on top of an Anton Bauer Dionic battery, and you know what that looked like to the Xray people!

I never take stingers on flights, too heavy, I switch to nice residential extension cords to save weight. I own 4 large Pelican cases but haven't flown with them in years, they'll probably be on Craigslist soon, because empty they're around 15 pounds each.

I have a scale in my garage and I don’t let a case go over 47 pounds, just in case the scale is wrong. Often, the foreign carriers will have even less of a weight limit, so it’s best to check online before packing. Sometimes it’s better to have more cases and pay for those than to let a case or two go overweight, especially internationally. I use cable ties to go through the zippers and I don’t cinch them until I know the case at the airport counter is under their limit. Some have said it’s a waste of time to lock my zippers but I don’t use them to prevent theft, rather, I want proof if someone went through the bag. I use multi colored cable ties. I trust no one. Here’s a clipping below from my bulletin board.

SPOTTERS: When I am doing cinema verite / reality / run ’n gun, I tell everyone, including the clients, “If you see me start to back pedal, please make sure I don’t trip or hurt someone.” I also tend to destroy things, Crate & Barrel is my oldest client and back pedaling there’s lots of displays of wine glasses, and other things I'd ruin. I think it was on this forum that I lately mentioned I shot a series in a high school for 6 months, and my wife started to hide the sponges in the kitchen. That’s because I would gaffer tape a sponge to my brick battery because I was afraid I would break the students’ noses as I back pedaled in the hallways between classes, and I LOVE to back pedal. So spotters to me are serious business and I once went down a flight of stairs walking backwards in a school because my soundman zoned out. Unfortunately for him we were connected by the umbilical! I think the Easy Rig is useful if you knew you had to be shoulder hand held all day, but it’s too cumbersome to keep switching back and forth, Eric, I know the Stedicam guru in Chicago Janice Arthur, and she became the rep for the Easy Rig, I can put you in touch and she can give you the low down pros and cons. Also, Stedicam is a specialty that is hard to grow old in, unless you're built like a spark plug. You may want to pick Janice's mind about that, she was one of the first. If you do plan on going into old age as a Stedicam op you should start to take yoga on a serious level.

FILMING KIDS' FACES AT THEIR LEVEL: Eric wrote that the Easy Rig helps do that. By necessity I developed a technique to film kids' faces while seated at their desks, while I was standing, by putting half a roll of G tape in my belt pouch, resting the camera on that and tilting my viewfinder up so I could look down and aim and focus. One of the reasons I got that highly profitable series "Yearbook" was that I had samples from doing all of Encylopedia Brittanicas films and many were in school settings where I used that trick. This would allow me to also pivot from face to face, kid to teacher, etc. It's too bad I didn't patent this idea because DP Andrei Cranach did and here is his product and site that illustrates this exact trick of mine, less the G tape. Had I patented it I could have retired earlier! Damn...

https://www.hipshot.tv

FAKE PRESS PASSES FOR SALE ON THE WEB: I don’t know if they will work with the airlines. I am buttery smooth with the counter people, think Eddie Haskell, and am good at BSing them, but cops in a stressful situation: I think you should have a bona fide government press pass. It means you were fingerprinted and found to not be a member of Al Qaeda or ISIS. I have been arrested twice while shooting, at the Alamo and the St. Louis Arch, both times because I was at first kicked out for not having a permit and then I snuck back in and got caught. I think if I had a real press pass in those days I’d have been left alone as a member of the media. So I would say call the Tampa PD and ask what’s needed, it may be simple. A buddy with a podcast may do it?

The latter part of this thread has got me thinking: What do you all pack for your lighting package on a typical, "run of the mill day", Talking Heads/B-roll/Repeat, if you own a vehicle smaller than a Suburban? For me, the most I can fit is my Diva, 1x1, Rifa, 2 Arri 650s, 2 Arri 200s, Flexfills, Dedo light, stand bag, flags and cutters, bag of Duvaten & Visqueen, one tube of window scrim, all in a 2015 Honda Pilot with custom built shelf. I don't even have room for C stands, I just bring gobo heads and arms and then "make" C stands when I need them. So I don't understand how some of you guys buy all these exotic light fixtures unless you have a larger vehicle? I'm speaking of the usual corporate/documentary day.

Later,

Mr. Miller
 

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This is a fantastic thread. I've only been working professionally for about 16 years, but I feel the same way about the commodification of the industry here in the Midwest. Over the last five years I have found rates going down to unsustainable levels.

For travel I use FedEx for all my lighting and grip gear. I have not lost anything yet, and it makes the airport experience less stressful. Camera, laptop, and glass stay with me, but I'm usually only hauling a 5D or C100.

Please make the site Ned. I love reading your posts.
 
Airlines often weigh carry-on bags when traveling outside of North America. Not every time, but often enough that it is an issue.

Some even have impromptu weigh stations by the boarding gate, though these are less common. If caught at one ask to speak to the Chief Flight Attendant (aka Flight Purser), & hope they'll waive you along.

I can verify that Air France are fanatics about weighing carry on, no matter the airport. BA and Virgin are a little more random, but will weigh if the backpack or case you are carrying looks heavy. Air Maroc (Morocco to Paris) were a little more random about it. Air New Zealand and Air Canada also seem pretty concerned about weight too. Have been weighed about 60% of the time. At CDG in Paris, our carry on was weighed before even being allowed into security, we were turned back, had to go back to check in counter and had to go through three levels of workers to get to a manager who okayed us "Because she saw our cameras and saw we were artists." You know the French, they do respect artists. But it was scary, we almost missed our once a day connection flight to LA because of about 90 minutes of carry on delay, it was not fun. I told my client on that trip who was with us that from now on we are just going to have either FedEx DHL or just pack everything into ATA cargo cases and pray it all shows up and isn't stolen by airport workers (I have had several items in check in stolen). This is a real issue for us who work internationally.
 
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They also don't weigh people. So you can buy large clothes, and after checking through security you can then put on say large pants, with a tripod strapped to each leg, store a couple lights in your "stomach area," etc.

Think of all the video equipment you could store in this much space...

obese_man-300x300.jpg

You're cracking me up Eric
 
Regarding checking baggage: I've said this countless times over the years and on multiple sites, "FedEx or UPS". I live on the east coast and FedEx Ground can have anything up and down the coast and at least as far west as Chicago in two days. And it's dirt cheap. And you don't have to dick around with cases and gear at the airport. And it's cheaper than the overages(excess baggage or overweight baggage) that the airlines will charge you, even with status.

The last year that I travelled all race season(26 out of 38 weeks), I never carried a thing to the airport except my personal suitcase and backpack. Do you know how less stressful that was not having to worry about overhead bin space to put a camera in? Even being Chairmans(at the time) and boarding first in first class there were flights where the overheads were already full around my seat. It was insane. And USAirways(now American) flight attendants don't give a FLYING F*** that you have a $70K camera that needs to go in an overhead bin and can't be checked. Lot's of old union lifers that can't be touched and are bitter and angry and you're looked at as an annoyance instead of a paying customer. I watched a senior FA throw a hissy and throw a family with their service dog off a flight(they were on at least their second leg of the trip). The other FA was fine with it and other customers even offered to trade seats to help accommodate the dog better, but she dug out her rule book and found whatever rule she was looking for that allowed her to do it. And I was not on the flight but one of my reporters was very pregnant(but still able to fly) and asked for help with her carry-on and the FA refused.

If it's ~7 hours or less, I consider it easily drivable and would actually prefer it. I haven't had to get on a plane since November '15 and I DO NOT MISS IT ONE BIT. If I never had to get on a plane again and could continue to make the living I'm accustomed to, I'd be fine with it.
 
Stream of consciousness thoughts for the day:


FILMING KIDS' FACES AT THEIR LEVEL: Eric wrote that the Easy Rig helps do that. By necessity I developed a technique to film kids' faces while seated at their desks, while I was standing, by putting half a roll of G tape in my belt pouch, resting the camera on that and tilting my viewfinder up so I could look down and aim and focus. One of the reasons I got that highly profitable series "Yearbook" was that I had samples from doing all of Encylopedia Brittanicas films and many were in school settings where I used that trick. This would allow me to also pivot from face to face, kid to teacher, etc. It's too bad I didn't patent this idea because DP Andrei Cranach did and here is his product and site that illustrates this exact trick of mine, less the G tape. Had I patented it I could have retired earlier! Damn...

https://www.hipshot.tv



The latter part of this thread has got me thinking: What do you all pack for your lighting package on a typical, "run of the mill day", Talking Heads/B-roll/Repeat, if you own a vehicle smaller than a Suburban? For me, the most I can fit is my Diva, 1x1, Rifa, 2 Arri 650s, 2 Arri 200s, Flexfills, Dedo light, stand bag, flags and cutters, bag of Duvaten & Visqueen, one tube of window scrim, all in a 2015 Honda Pilot with custom built shelf. I don't even have room for C stands, I just bring gobo heads and arms and then "make" C stands when I need them. So I don't understand how some of you guys buy all these exotic light fixtures unless you have a larger vehicle? I'm speaking of the usual corporate/documentary day.

Later,

Mr. Miller

I bought a hipshot a few years ago. I thought I'd use it a lot more than I did. The problem was that when I really needed it, I didn't have it with me. Lol. It's always in the back seat of the truck, though.

Re: Lighting package on any given day.

I have a good size vehicle(F250) and live in a more, uhmm... rural area than say downtown Chicago, so I can probably be a little more liberal with what I carry around all of the time. On any given job/shoot, in the truck we will have:
4x Astra's with Chimeras (just took my Kino's out permanently)
Sola ENG flight kit(3 lights)
Bron Kobold 800 HMI

2x 1650's for tungsten containing:
2X Arri 650's, 2x 300's, 4x 150's, Source 4 pattern proj., 2x Lowel Omni's, Chimeras, speedings, dimmers, gels, etc.

1750 gun case with 4x turtle base 40" C-stands, 1750 outdoor "stand-up kit"(3 beefy babies, arms, heads, 4x4's, 6x6's, silks, solids), small gun case with 8x light stands and 4x low plates.

2 loose C-stands, assorted heavy duty stands, 6x6 and 4x4 frames and silks, 12+ 25lb shot bags, 5lb & 10lb boa bags, small shot bags, etc.

Assorted flags & scrims, LOTS of black backdrops/duve, green screen, sound blankets

Assorted grips, clamps, A/C, etc. 2 pair of sticks, Rock 'n Roller... I'm leaving stuff out, but you get the idea.
 
If overhead space is full, & you have to get gear in the bin, consider bribing your fellow travelers to give up space, & check their bag(s).
 
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By necessity I developed a technique to film kids' faces while seated at their desks, while I was standing, by putting half a roll of G tape in my belt pouch, resting the camera on that and tilting my viewfinder up so I could look down and aim and focus. One of the reasons I got that highly profitable series "Yearbook" was that I had samples from doing all of Encylopedia Brittanicas films and many were in school settings where I used that trick. This would allow me to also pivot from face to face, kid to teacher, etc. It's too bad I didn't patent this idea because DP Andrei Cranach did and here is his product and site that illustrates this exact trick of mine, less the G tape. Had I patented it I could have retired earlier! Damn...

Later,

Mr. Miller

Didn't knew about patenting this. I routinely carry a belt pouch made by kinesis and use it for resting the camera and filming. I was interviewing a forester regarding some maoist attacks on the forest department camps. He was worried about the camera as he was showing me all illegal country made guns etc. So I just rested the C300 on my pouch and kept it rolling while talking with him. I just wanted to document that. :)
 
Great thread! I'm still a relatively young guy who's early into his career, but I gotta say that the sentiments about the industry rates plummeting are a bit distressing. I've read that from several people here and on other forums.

For those who've been around a while, what's your strategy? Downsize? Deal with it? Find a new line of work?

I want to believe that there's still a way to make decent money at this. I never thought I'd be rich or anything, but I'm hoping to climb out of entry level rate hell soon and at least be comfortable.
 
here's the secret---the best marketing/sales guy wins. If you can convince them they need your services and you are worth $xxx, you will be able to make $xxx.
 
The latter part of this thread has got me thinking: What do you all pack for your lighting package on a typical, "run of the mill day",

Later,

Mr. Miller
Or in your case, run of the Miller day? :happy:

If overhead space is full, & you have to get gear in the bin, consider bribing your fellow travelers to give up space, & check their bag(s).
I've done this- paid hundreds in bribes over the years for overheads, aisle seats and exit rows (I'm 6'5"). Man do I hate flying. Even before TSA... when $25 to a skycap would get you a 60-70 lb case on. Or two.

Flying to Ushuaia Chile (the extreme southern tip of Chile) on the way to Tierra del Fuego and Antartica, I paid a 15 y.o. Chilean boy $125 for his front exit row aisle seat with unlimited legroom so I could sleep on the red eye. But it turned out there was a crying baby in the center section one row back, and even with headphones, there went any hope of sleep :crybaby:



Re: Hipshot, back in my ENG cam days, I wore a Porta Brace hip pouch, and would rest the camera on the pouch. Worked perfectly- low b roll shots, and drifting sitting interviews.
 
Great thread! I'm still a relatively young guy who's early into his career, but I gotta say that the sentiments about the industry rates plummeting are a bit distressing. I've read that from several people here and on other forums.

For those who've been around a while, what's your strategy? Downsize? Deal with it? Find a new line of work?

I want to believe that there's still a way to make decent money at this. I never thought I'd be rich or anything, but I'm hoping to climb out of entry level rate hell soon and at least be comfortable.

Not trying to discourage you, but for those of us who have been at this for a few decades, it is TOUGH to even make a decent living these days being a camera op/DP. There are a few who do it but being an up and comer these days is quite a challenge. Personally, I find my day rates, especially with my own gear are decent, it's the staying working consistently that is the challenge. My client roster keeps expanding, just recently picked up three new clients, but even with a full roster, keeping the work steady is difficult and the most frustrating part of being a single shooter is when you are already booked for dates and your other clients call you. It can be pretty painful to only be booked for a one two or three day shoot during a month and have two other clients call to book you for the exact same dates and you have to turn them away. Painful! I love what I do, but I also do a lot of other things, freelance writer, I write for several magazines and websites, I also produce, edit, have a production company with projects in development. That would be a good piece of advice, develop other skills so when you have no shooting gigs for a month, you have other possibilities to generate income. Better yet, and I am serious here, if you are young, get a business or finance degree and get a real job. Or engineering. If I had it to do all over again, I would NOT have gone into production. I love it, I really have shot some amazing projects all over the world, I work with Hollywood A-listers, but my friends who are in finance make a LOT more money than I do. It's always that equation, money versus job enjoyment.

I really enjoy my job, but struggle to have a relatively consistent income from year to year and other than 2016, my income has pretty much been on a downward slide for half a decade. As far as freelance shooting, rates are lower, jobs are fewer and every year there is more competition. Living in LA, there are literally thousands of qualfied freelance camera people and DPs. I worked a project in December where I ended up at the Hollywood Improv, shooting with half a dozen other camera crews, all of us working for the same client/project. We had some down time to eat and all of us were chatting, probably 30 freelancers in a room together. Some of the crews were working pretty consistently and seemed happy, but many, you could tell, were struggling with these same issues. A few takeaways from that meeting/conversations...

1. In LA at least, renting is only effective at higher levels of production, like commercials and features. In the lower end to medium level where I work (EFP, Junkets, Event, BTS, Docs, Promo type work), every camera person there owned, at minimum, a C100/C300 and most owned and were using a fully kitted C300 MKII, about $20k for the packages I saw. No Sonys, no REDs, no BMDs, it was four of the six crews shooting with their own C300 MKII, fully kitted out.

2. Most of the camera ops under the age of 40 were shooting and were excited about high end VR (not at this shoot, but their general work lately seemed to be highly focused on VR) The takeaway is, even if you think you are ahead of the curve with new tech, method of shooting, at least in a large market like LA, you are already behind the curve.

3. In my little promo/BTS world, the traditional studios are fading away as far as being clients. Most there were mostly shooting either high end corporate like this gig was or are shooting for Netflix, Amazon, Hulu and Buzzfeed. The take away is, old clients/out, new media/clients have all of the money. A friend I shoot a lot for has a company that is mostly established with Fox, Sony and CBS. All of those clients and budgets are plummeting, while Netflix, Amazon, Hulu and Buzzfeed are spending like crazy on all sorts of obscure projects you have never heard of. So even if you are established with what seemed to be a safe bet as far as clients, your entire market can dry up in a matter of months. That's scary for most, it can be tough to land clients and even tougher when a whole market fades away. All of the camera ops/DPs/Prod companies who shot for those fading clients don't just disappear, they go for the same clients you are. As more competition is out there, your chances of landing new clients is smaller and smaller.

4. Cameras are a PITA, the market is insane. It used to be you could invest a good chunk of change and BUY a camera like a Sony F900 for a lot, say $100k, fully outfitted. But, you would use and be able to charge for that camera for years and years, the F900 was the "It girl" for half a decade. If you bought a $100k camera package and could cost it out over 5 years, 20k per year in camera charges wasn't that hard to pull off. FF to 2017. Say you buy today's "It girl" like an Arri Amira or even an Alexa Mini or Alxa or a RED 8K Weapon for the same $100k for the body, support, batteries, chargers, lenses, etc. What do you do when Arri all of sudden introduces their new flagship that shoots 12k? And everyone shooting high end HAS to have the latest Arri 12k camera? Your camera investment of $100k can be made worth $20k overnight. It's insane. Buying new camera technology has never been riskier, no matter which camera you buy, there are newer, better, higher resolution offerings almost weekly. This all translates the same in the medium and even the lower end where most of us are. The C300 MKII is the belle of the ball right now, but by April at NAB 2017, good chance that your $20k C300MKII package will be MUCH less desirable or valuable. But the contradiction is, most camera ops, at least in my market and segment, get hired largely because they are owner/operators. Of course, depending on your market/segment, this could be different.

Anyway, I am rambling. But seriously, just as Ned will tell you, I only recommend becoming a camera op/DP if you are not getting married, having kids, a mortgage, braces, college, it can be a great career for a single person OR if you marry a spouse who makes a lot of money and has a solid consistent job, it can work. My wife is a teacher so she doesn't make a lot of money, but she makes decent money and has our family's health insurance. So for me, we can get by if I have a bad month or rates are slashed. But long term, spouses will start to regard your job as a hobby if you aren't consistently making good money and resentments can build up. The other big takeaway is to work smart. You can work hard, I have for decades but the amazing thing that I have discovered is that input doesn't equal output and that can be incredibly frustrating. Case in point, 2015 was one of my worse years in the business. My income was about half of what it had been the previous few years. I worked my ass off, schmoozing, calling promoting myself, networking, etc. It just wasn't happening and I had some bad breaks with clients, one screwed my out of $15k by going bankrupt. I spent a LOT of time in bankruptcy court and filing claims and in the end, got screwed. I had signed contracts, pre-payment on some of the work but the bottom line was, the lawyers all got paid and we payees all got screwed, not a penny. FF to 2016, I didn't work nearly as hard, the jobs just flowed in and the end of the year, I landed one project making almost $100k in profit, plus all of my other projects were and still are humming along. That's all good but somewhat scary because the newfound wealth and success, I had no control over it happening, it just happened. This pattern has repeated itself for more than twenty years for me, effort, intelligence, marketing strategy and hard work have had almost nothing to do with my financial successes. Often, the harder, more diligently I have worked, the less money I have made. Conversely other times when I have been at status quo, the production Gods have smiled upon me and a big paycheck drops out of the sky from nowhere. I know, long term marketing, reputation, etc. but for a logical person like me, it can be incredibly frustrating to have no correlation or causation that determines how much money I make in a given year.

Hope some of my ramblings and musings are helpful. The biggest takeaway is, if you go into this line of work, expect to struggle, scrape and be frustrated for years, possibly even decades and even when it feels as if things are going well, the rug will pulled out from underneath you and you will have to start over again. Not to say that all of this doesn't happen in a corporate job either, it does. But be objective about what is most important to you in life. If having a marriage, spouse, raising kids, owning a house or two, having long term safe investments that you can consistenly contribute to, having some amount of job security are important to you, go to school and get a good degree in a solid business that is forecast to continue to be necessary to daily life for most Americans. Entertainment, if you think about it, adds little intrinsic value to life. It is fun, and somewhat necessary, but in the end, what my wife does, influencing young minds to grow and hopefully be successful and change the world, is far more important than what I do, which is make fluff that mostly doesn't mean a thing to society in the long run. Even the corporate work I do, which are actual tools that generate income or change behaviors for my clients, in the end, they all have an incredibly short shelf life. I love what I do, but I am not making art most of the time and even art is mostly not that important to mankind in the long run. Just depends on what you find fulfilling.
 
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Chuck: Yes, you can save the $300+ by putting a roll of G tape in your Portabrace pouch and not buy the Hipshot. I also used my Portabrace suede shoulder strap around my neck to help balance and avoid an accident while looking down. I think it is more for these reality shooters who are looking at a 12-16 hour hand held day, much of it filming subjects who are seated, and they are using a 18 lb plus rig with transmitters and full size bricks. It is little wonder that a documentary cameraman's career is cut short by neck, back, shoulder and knee problems, when you look at their posture. I will often bring my doctor's office shooting stool if I know I'll be in classrooms all day, see photo below. It was $80 and rolls silently. Impresses the Hell out of the clients that the DP would have such a weird item, but I am in classrooms a lot.

DBP: (What's your real name? Why do people afraid to be known? Oh well...) You say you're young and starting out. There is a lame biz forum here on DVX, newbies and folks who think they'll make it to Sundance, you should start lurking at Creative Cow's Business & Marketing forum and read the last two years of posts, probably take three hours, and learn a ton. Those regulars tend to be more in post, or really small prod cos or producers. I'm a DP who has "lucked" into producing gigs so I also produce, but farm out most of my complex post. I'll leave you with this one crappy example below, it has to do with work I turned down recently and is indicative of what has happened to this great business, although it IS possible to still land good clients, it is now harder, especially when you are away from LA & NYC. A "good" client is one who pays decently, pays on time, loves you, your crew, the look your camera / lighting / lenses provides, has a regular need for video so you can count on their cash flow and when competitors approach them they do not use those competitors to make you come down in price, which is very, very common. They are loyal to you, which is getting less common with the younger clients who see video as a commodity, easy to crowd source. So here is an example that is happening around 10-15 times a year now, increasing in occurrence.

Being based in Chicago I am very diversified and one of my niches is large events such as conferences, seminars, symposiums, trade shows, etc. A large international software company contacted me for a two day shoot and what I figured would be at least a one week edit. Just a few years ago I would have figured this to be around $7K, I took a sharp pencil to it and came in at $5K with me working solo, and they told me that they go "all over the US and world and get good videographers for no more than $3K" and would I come down to that price?

So, typically all my peers I would complain to would historically say, "Well Ned, they're just a cheap ass client. You wouldn't want them anyway. They don't know quality." That is the default response when one shooter or producer tells a lost bid horror story to a colleague. But no! You can PM me and I'll tell you their name and YT channel, and you can see they go to all the major markets and get a DSLR kid in his twenties, who is not "half bad", to do the following:

• Two day shoot of 10 hours each. The first day you better get there 90 minutes early to set up and test audio, the second day 60 minutes early. 24 speakers over the two days, just stay wide, no need to get slides, but you need to follow the active ones.

• No Lunch Breaks: During their break you will be set up in the hall getting happy testimonials and some b-roll, so you can cut together the recap reel explained below. So maybe you can eat a Clif Bar while rolling?

• Parking: Downtown Chicago is $40 a day, so you eat $80.

• Edit one 3-4 minute sizzle reel which will encourage attendance for the next event. The client will need to choose sound bites, and there will be a couple of revisions, so these recap reels take about two days of your post time.

• Edit 24, twenty minute videos. They will all be one long take, no need to edit in slides, but you need to add a custom title to the front and back, then render and export. If there were any bobbles or jerks, you need to cut to some audience shot you picked up with a second camera, so in effect, you have to watch everything again in real time.

You say you're "young", I assume that means 23-27 years old? And let's say you're "good", or what now means "technically capable" and they dangle a $3000 carrot in front of you. At you're age you'd jump at it! $3000! But you'd have to do a $3000 gig every two weeks to have a middle class life in a typical US city, more if you have kids. But just a few short years ago clients like these, with a good budget, who are media savvy, I would charge $7K. This gig came in through a crowd sourcing site meaning that the clients look at us as a commodity and they just keep getting bids lower and lower until it meets their budget, no matter how unrealistically low it is.

I could list many other examples of rates going down, although the non-fiction TV market has good rates but very long days, I can't compete in that arena anymore because at 63 I don't want to buy new gear. Also, I prioritize clients who don't want to work past 5PM, which is why I love to do corporate videos. Those types want to hit Happy Hour, or their gym, or go home to their family at 5PM. No 14-16 hour days for them! Just a few years ago, when a local chiropractor, or karate school owner, etc., wanted a website video, I could charge $1500-$2000. Now, when I attend the Chamber of Commerce network meetings, the competing video guys, some of whom are "not half-bad", will charge $350-$500.

When I gave the features of a "good client" above, they are out there, it's just that they already have someone who they are happy to work with. So the trick is: How do you find a new one? That's why CC's forum is superior, although you will have to use your real identity, which many here are reticent to do. This is what I am doing now, looking for new clients to replace the old ones, because in the last couple of years I lost most of my repeatable clients, mainly due to them not wanting to do videos anymore (no provable ROI), or they decided to go DIY, which I see more of nowadays because the last few years, the crop of graduates can do "not half-bad" video in-house. I am finding new clients, it's just that they want to pay so much less than before! The Dodd Frank bill eliminated my best credit card client, who for 10 years put my kids through college. A classic case of Who Moved My Cheese.

So...go to CC's forum. I would not recommend this field to someone just starting out, unless you come from money or married into it, as I see many now are, as mentioned in above posts. Every few months my bank has a Shredding Event, I can bring many banker boxes. As I wait in line I look through my invoice files, and when adjusted for inflation, us shooters made so much more money in the past, and that is why I have a nice lifestyle presently. So DBP, be smart! Find something profitable to do with a future, like robotics!

Lastly, why would anyone want to enter an occupation where the hours are soooooo long, the leading cause of death is falling asleep at the wheel? My last staff job was in 1979, and this is why I went freelance: I awoke to truck horns in the pre-dawn darkness after I fell asleep with my eyes open and crossed the median into oncoming lanes. This is why I like clients who don't go past 5PM. Watch this video and then let me know in a PM if you think this profession is a good idea:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vWI7S86CRw

Later,

Mr. Miller
 

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Great thread! I'm still a relatively young guy who's early into his career, but I gotta say that the sentiments about the industry rates plummeting are a bit distressing. I've read that from several people here and on other forums.

For those who've been around a while, what's your strategy? Downsize? Deal with it? Find a new line of work?

I want to believe that there's still a way to make decent money at this. I never thought I'd be rich or anything, but I'm hoping to climb out of entry level rate hell soon and at least be comfortable.

There are veteran producers who push you down, demand tons of stuff and point out that you don't have master primes or XYZ and then ask you to reduce your rates. To get higher rates one also needs to reject work.

In the initial days it is difficult to pick and choose. In the short run it may hurt you, however, not reducing your rates to match the other fellows will prove to be beneficial in the long run. Ofcourse, one needs to show some shooting prowess to justify the higher price. If you don't believe that you are worth it, then you will never get higher rates.

+1 to Puredrifting and Ned's posts above.

If one is not passionate enough, then it is difficult to sustain in this business. If you want to make money and be rich then this may not be the profession. Like in any field, if you can reach real excellence then money can flow.
 
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There are veteran producers who push you down,

No Sabyaschi, I am referring, besides the TV shows, to the people I am bidding to tend to be Marketing Managers, Directors, VPs or in Human Resources or Public Relations, perhaps Event Planners, Sales Managers, the occasional entrepreneur, non-profit execs, or they have their own small agency. They don't know gear. They aren't pixel peepers. They just want to get me as cheap as possible. It's not that bad for me, after all, I'm near retirement anyways, I just don't see how young DPs can make it in the long run.

Oh well, don't want to depress the young uns. But think ahead! This is a capital intensive business with lowering prices, so move to LA or NYC to hope to survive.
 
My02 - your as good as the work you output.... and with a timely delivery along with a great disposition and on-set demeanor, you will grow and acquire better gear.
but I gotta say that the sentiments about the industry rates plummeting are a bit distressing
Don't sweat it at all - if you love what your doing you'll be fine.
 
Oh well, don't want to depress the young uns. But think ahead! This is a capital intensive business with lowering prices, so move to LA or NYC to hope to survive.

I would say just the opposite. Stay out of NY or LA if you want to survive(unless your aspirations are big time narrative/commercial). There are TOO MANY shooters/DP's, everything... in those locations that will work for nothing. And it's a damn shame, because there are a lot of talented people there that are just giving it away. I guess I'm lucky that I live in a good area with a reasonable/good cost of living, where most of the clients pay "the going rate" at any given level of production and we don't have the glut of people that are in NYC and LA, so a lot of the people stick to their guns as far as rates go(a reasonable range, not necessarily a hard specific number). We do have a lot of camera and audio guys here, but If I can't do it there are about 5-6 guys in-town that I will call/send work to before I tell the client that they're on their own(meaning guys that I will personally vouch for for anything) and one of my big clients will go about maybe five deep(counting me), before they will bring in from another state, so it's not just "unlimited resources" as far as talent goes, so they either pay the talented people that are here or they have to travel. Of course, the problem is, the acceptable level of talent vs cost is ever changing(lowering) and that's what's spreading across the industry. It's just slower in taking affect in some areas than others.
 
puredrifting Thanks for that really honest, candid and detailed post. Super helpful, and a big reason why I love forums. I worked staff for 3 years and have been freelancing since. I have experienced some of the issues you've brought up already. I know exactly what you mean by the random acts of production gods bestowing good and bad years. Leaving the staff position and dealing with the swings has been tough. Feels like I'm perpetually out of work and looking for my my next gig, but somehow I've managed to scrape by each time. Agreed on the gear. My set up is pretty minimal compared to most (GH4, Blackmagic pocket), but jumping higher in quality and street cred is a big leap in cost, and the turnover makes it obsolete. I'd love a RED, but I'd be flat out scared to buy one with how fast value decreases. They are almost like computers now.

nedcam Same goes for you, great, detailed post. Real name is Steve Shea, I'm based out of Vancouver. The username is a holdover from back in the day when that was the thing to do on forums. I don't mind using my real name. If there's a way to change my current username, I will. I'm actually turning 33 soon, so I guess not that young! I think that's part of the problem...I still feel young, but the years have zapped by quickly, and I'm starting to hit that "oh s**t" moment where I realize I have to step my game up. Been doing this 7 years this year, but I've never really progressed beyond that entry level, which is a problem. At first it was thrilling to make any salary creating video, but scraping by month to month is getting old. Especially here where the cost of living is absurd. I do the one man band thing, so I have editing as well to make some money. As time goes on, I'm finding myself preferring to shoot more and more though.

Luckily I am married to someone much smarter than me with a good career choice. She's finishing up her PhD and should be working as a prof in a few years, so we'll have one reliable, decent income. Neither of us have any issues with her being the primary breadwinner but from a pride standpoint, I'd feel silly working in a field where I'm not making and contributing anything. I can deal with making less, but I want to know that I'd be alright on my own, you know? It was sobering to meet so many videographers and photographers here who work other day jobs to pay for their gear, then use that gear to make peanuts. Seemed like an expensive hobby. Still, I like knowing where the industry is at. What you say might not sound entirely pleasant, but if it's the truth, gotta deal with it.

indiawilds Definitely. One of the first lessons I learned with freelancing. It's still hard to do, especially when times are lean.
 
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(What's your real name? Why do people afraid to be known? Oh well...)
Ned I think you're hung up on this...some people on this forum might not just care so much about identity. Personally, I don't want my name coming up in a Google search on every dumb post I make. (such as this one) That said, one click on my sig and you'll see my name. But it's really not that important, is it?

I've got some files to render out for a client so I have some time...(lots of rambling, sorry!)

This thread has got me all over the place with my opinions. Part of me is in the camp of "GET OUT!!!!" of this industry. I spent the entire last weekend editing round-the-clock on a big project when I would rather have been spending time with family or more importantly...surfing! I mean, I haven't had a real day off since January 1.

So on that note, business for me right now is booming. I've always tried to shy away from the doom-and-gloom camp I see on these boards. Flash back to the end of 2014. I landed an excellent staff job making videos for an NGO. Amazing travel opportunities, great co-workers, it was a dream job...that only lasted a year due to budget cuts. Top of 2016, I was back on my own, freelancing with a chip on my shoulder. And I still got that chip. At first, I filled out a TON of job applications online. Most went nowhere, i did get a few interviews. All I wanted was a stable job with benefits and a 401K. But no one will have me in their club, so I had to make my own club. (that's another topic for another thread) Back to freelance: When you are starting fresh again, you'll be amazed at how many old clients come out of the woodwork. You may have gone away, but they still need videos. So my piece of advice is simply, be a nice guy. (Of course I can shoot my mouth off in this post, because I inadvertently took Ned's romance advice years ago. I've said it before...it's crass, but it's true. Young guys, go find that bar near the med school.)

I am 45 so that puts me somewhere in the "middle" of this video career path. For the most part, I work on crap. But sometimes, this crap is for very important people. Behind the scenes-type stuff. I've become more of an editor than a shooter as I've gotten older based on demand. But I'd be a fool not to have a camera (FS700) readily available for gigs. If your business is slow, learn to edit. No one wants to do the crapwork, and it can be lucrative. There always seems to be a pile of footage that no one wants to edit. Maybe you can. In my case, I gravitated to what I'm good at: corporate video. It's not glamorous, but there seems to be quite a need for it right now in the suburban Connecticut. But back to my age. I'm growing weary. I don't want to do 4K. I don't want to do VR. (puredrifting's recent post was depressing!) I'm busy in the moment, but I feel the trends are eventually gonna make me obsolete. That's a choice I gotta make. Another quick note on age: I work with plenty of guys my senior that stay very busy and are very talented. Don't let age slow you down!

BTW, the breakdown of the "Chicago" shoot scenario is mind-numbingly accurate. I've seen clients grind the hell out of people I work for. (makes me wonder if there's any money left over after they pay me to edit!) Examples like that are why I'd never choose this career path if I could go back again. I should have been an accountant like my old man!

Best of luck to everyone, I personally feel the need for video has ramped up a bit in recent months. Hopefully the trend continues. OK, my renders are almost done...gotta go to another gig. (always hustling, right?)
 
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