i would take HVX lowlight sensitivity, and resolution with a boost in Dynamic range... That would be REAL nice.
Hvx200a
- Thread starter vip77
- Start date
Barry_Green
Moderator
How is this relevant? We're talking about today. And today, an HVX with 16GB of memory is about $5100, and an EX1 with 16GB of memory is about $6450. That's all I'm talking about.
If the EX1 was introduced two years ago, it probably wouldn't have had any cards included either, and its cards would have cost extremely more than they do now. The fact that SxS costs exactly to the penny the same price as P2 cards do, leads me to think that if they'd been introduced two years ago they'd cost exactly what P2 cards cost two years ago. So I'm not following the argument here at all. Surely the only thing that matters is the comparison that's made today, and the choices someone has on how to spend their dollars today, right?
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Barry_Green
Moderator
It's $7790 with one 8GB card at MSRP, street price is about $6450. An additional card is $550, so yes, street price with two 8GB cards is $7,000. But Sony has been offering a free 8GB card by rebate, so I was using that price instead ($6450 with 16GB total). When that offer expires (I believe it expires March 31?) then it will be $5100 for the HVX with 16GB, vs. $7000 for an EX1 with 16GB.
If it were possible to buy both products without cards at all, an EX1 would be $5900 and an HVX would be $4200. But that's not possible, so it's a rather irrelevant way of looking at things.
Either way you slice it, they're not in the same price class at all.
EX1 cannot record anything other than HDV through firewire.
Depends on what you mean by "in the price range." If you're asking a $5,000 product to deliver the same performance as a $7,000 product then yes, that's too much to ask for. Are you willing to let Panasonic increase the price by $2,000? Then if so, I'm sure they can match the EX1 feature for feature. But that wouldn't be an HVX200a, that'd be an HVX250 or HVX300 or something like that.
That the HVX, as a P2 HD camera, when lauched, was a 7000 + USD camera competing on that price range for HD P2 acquisition for more than a year. The only other camera in the sub 10k market more expensive at the time was the XL-H1.
The HVX was a P2hd camera for 7000+ dollars back then. Technology as evolved, the competitors have upped their game. So the HVX, naturaly, had a price reduction. Its common business practice. But this doesn't take out from the fact that the HVX was- and I repeat- a camera that, to work in P2 HD, was above 7k.
It was introduced in that price range.
The Sony EX is introduced at the same price range as the HVX was first introduced. The HVX is cheaper now due to the life cicle of the camera, the reduction of costs of the media and the competition. So it is fair that its replacement, placed at a similar price range, performs just as well or even better- they have excelent codecs, good knowledge on gamma and dinamic range, and produce revolutionary products that have pushed the boundaries of the market.
I want to see, passed on almost 3 years from the introduction of the HVX, a successor that sets the standard once again for the price range.
EDIT- Obviously wrote this without reading your last reply, Barry
However, this still doesn't mean I don't consider the HVX in the same price range as the EX. Sony upped the game in all aspects, and its time for Panasonic to do the same. Anything less than a camera with comparable performance in key aspects, like the mentioned dinamic range, low light performance and perceivable resolution (no need for full 1920x1080 chips) will be a disappointment. And using price as a distinction between both cameras only serves as a point of the HVX not being on the same championship as the EX. This says a lot.
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Barry_Green
Moderator
I think there's some "voodoo economics" going on here. Let me try again:
If Sony had introduced the EX1 in 2005, it probably would have cost $10,000 including cards. The HVX was $7,000 including cards.
But they didn't, they introduced it in basically 2008. So now it's $6500 including 16GB, where the HVX is $5100 including 16GB. And that's only due to a special promotion; when that promotion expires it's going to be EX1: $7,000 for 16GB, HVX: $5100 for 16GB.
If Sony had introduced the EX1 in 2005, it probably would have cost $10,000 including cards. The HVX was $7,000 including cards.
But they didn't, they introduced it in basically 2008. So now it's $6500 including 16GB, where the HVX is $5100 including 16GB. And that's only due to a special promotion; when that promotion expires it's going to be EX1: $7,000 for 16GB, HVX: $5100 for 16GB.
Looking at how you can spend your money today, how can you possibly say they're in the same price class?
Yes, including upping the price tag! Let Panasonic up the price tag and I'm sure they could match it toe to toe in every aspect.
Give me a 1/2 x3ccd's HVX300 with 1440x1080 pixel shifted with the same or superior dinamic range, variable frame rates and Pal/Ntsc compatible recording modes, including with it one 16gb P2 card, for 6500 USD. I would be a very, very happy camper.
This would be a lot less than what I paid for for an HVX200 with 2x8gb P2cards, when it was launched!
What I mean is: back then, the HVX package felt right for the budget. It was priced as such. As times go by (2 years and a half)and new technology is introduced, the HVX, which is the same machine that before costed 7000 to work as a P2HD camera, costs 5995 with a 16gb P2 card. This makes sense, because the HVX is getting old, or surpassed by the competition.
The "new" HVX, the one we are all expecting to at least be announced at NAB, is the camera that is coming to replace my 7000 dollar investment when I first purchased the HVX. It should be in the same price range, and present me with features that are on par with the best at that price.
You have to agree, Barry, that the EX was designed as an HVX beater- it is almost a carbon copy of the thing, with cmos chips and its issues, but with better dinamic range, better low light performance, excelent resolution and Solid state recording.
The HVX, when it was lauched in December 2004, was the best damn HD camera you could get for under 7k (as a P2hd camcorder). Its 2008, its successor needs to at least match the competition- the EX is evidently an "in your face" response from Sony.
I know I sound like a broken record, so I'll stop here, however, IMHO, The EX and the HVX are currently direct competitors. And introducing merelly a software update tweak with minor hardware changes to the HVX (keeping 1/3ccds with same native resolution, same low light performance, etc.) is seriously going to open some market share for the EX.
Not that I wouldn't mind a software update for my HVX with all the software tidbits we are requesting in this thread. But some things, like better resolution LCD, Better resolution chips, Bigger Dinamic Range, Better DOF control, much better low light performance can only be done with a camera redesign, or a new camera.
The HVX200a should be a software update for current HVX's, with image flip, different scene files, delete last clip option, audio recordin for 4 channels- two XLR's, two using the built in, Pal, NTSC frame rates and fully unlocked frame rates in general, etc.
The HVX250, or HVX300 (like you said, Barry), should be a true successor. It should be to the market what the HVX was when it was introduced- Which was a revolutionary under 7k P2HD Handheld camcorder.
Canon is always like this... I remember when the Xl2 was introduced, it came out of nothing, and it was to be released almost immediately. The same happened to the XL-H1. They have their own show in September, if I remember correctly. Normally that's the time when things happen.
You know, back when I was researching my HD camera purchase, it all came back to Panasonic vs Canon. What will we see next?
Canon doesn't own a proprietary professional video recording format, so what are they going to use on their next camcorder update?
It was Canon that practically "pioneered" HD-SDi in the sub 10k market... What will they bring to the table next?
I can think of at least one good reason for a removable lens: it would enable using a much simpler, smaller, lighter, and more light-sensitive relay lens for a DOF adapter -- in fact, it could be integrated into the adapter.
PatrickLawler
Active member
I just want a camera with interchangeable lenses that don't magnify the image by a factor of 7. That's a ccd size thing right?
filmguy123
Veteran
My HVX200a Wishlist:
- 3x 1/2in CCDs for better low-light, dynamic range
- Interchangeable lenses
- 1920x1080 full frame native resolution (not prefiltered) [this would probably need to be via AVC-Intra100 only?)
- Option to record to AVC-HD, AVC-Intra50 or 100, and all current HVX formats (DVCPRO-HD, DV, etc.)
- Support for 2xSDHC cards (while of course maintaining P2), so you can choose. If this means scrapping the tape recording, I'd be OK with that, using this as a replacement (of course, it would be great to keep the DV tape recorder, too)
- LCD flip for 35mm adaptor
- Higher RES LCD
- Ability to record INPUT onto digital medium, not just DV tape
- PAL & NTSC recording
******* Barry -> How likely we'll see these things in a revision or successor anytime soon? Which are unlikely, and why?
- 3x 1/2in CCDs for better low-light, dynamic range
- Interchangeable lenses
- 1920x1080 full frame native resolution (not prefiltered) [this would probably need to be via AVC-Intra100 only?)
- Option to record to AVC-HD, AVC-Intra50 or 100, and all current HVX formats (DVCPRO-HD, DV, etc.)
- Support for 2xSDHC cards (while of course maintaining P2), so you can choose. If this means scrapping the tape recording, I'd be OK with that, using this as a replacement (of course, it would be great to keep the DV tape recorder, too)
- LCD flip for 35mm adaptor
- Higher RES LCD
- Ability to record INPUT onto digital medium, not just DV tape
- PAL & NTSC recording
******* Barry -> How likely we'll see these things in a revision or successor anytime soon? Which are unlikely, and why?
John Godden
Well-known member
it would be amazing if it could record HD through the component cable to P2......
I would record all my favorite movies.......
filmguy123
Veteran
Well... maybe, maybe not....
- Interchangeable lens at a sub 5k price point has been done years ago (Canon XL1)
- Ex1 has that 1920x1080 resolution chips
- Codec support is software based, as long as you have a fast enough processor, which doesn't actually cost that much more to implement
- Support for SDHC memory cards should add little to cost
- Higher RES LCD doesn't have to be drastically higher, but it would be nice to see a decent improvement
- Others are negligible improvements that would be nice but take virtually nothing to implement
The only feature in question is the 3x1/2in CCDs. But to combat the increased resolution, and competition w/low light, that might be a necessity. Ex1 has 3x1/2in CCDs - granted they are CMOS. So the CCS might be the only issue in making it a 10k+ camera, but I see no reason why everything else could not be implemented.
4-5 years ago if someone described the HVX200 they'd say it was at least a 10k+ camera (with HD, P2, variable frame rates, etc.) Time moves forward. It's been 3 years since the HVX.
Barry_Green
Moderator
People keep saying that, but let's check the calendar and keep the facts straight: it's been 3 years since the HVX was first discussed, but it's only been on the market for barely over two years. The very first ones in the world shipped on Dec. 29, 2005, and they shipped in extraordinarily limited quantities over the next few months. It was probably about March 2006 before they shipped in quantity. There are very few people who have had an HVX for over two years.
So it's a whole lot more accurate to say "it's been 2 years since the HVX hit the shelves."
filmguy123
Veteran
Ah, my bad. OK, 2 years. Barry - which items on that HVX200a wishlist I made do you think or reasonable? Which are just NOT going to happen, now or anytime soon?
slimchrisp
Well-known member
dvx100 to dvx100a time
dvx100 to dvx100a time
just wondering, what was the time between the release of the dvx100 and the dvx100a? i know that doesn't necessarily translate to the hvx, but i'm just trying to weigh my options.
i'm picking up my hvx pretty soon here, but i think i'm at least going to hold out until after nab. 4 more weeks. ahhhh!!!
dvx100 to dvx100a time
just wondering, what was the time between the release of the dvx100 and the dvx100a? i know that doesn't necessarily translate to the hvx, but i'm just trying to weigh my options.
i'm picking up my hvx pretty soon here, but i think i'm at least going to hold out until after nab. 4 more weeks. ahhhh!!!
Barry_Green
Moderator
100 to 100a was a little over a year, IIRC. 100a to 100b was two years, wasn't it?
the difference between the 100 and 100a was the a had autofocus in 24p, gain in 24p, and a new paint color.
filmguy123
Veteran
so the 100b was the noteworthy update, which was 3 years since the DVX100 then? Well its been just over 2 years since HVX widely available, so maybe an HVX200a later this year is pretty reasonable!