HVX200A vs. EX-1

Justyn said:
My buddy has the EX and he does complain about the jump time between formats.


One thing that I'd like to see is how well the EX camera handles motion tracking as a friend had some real trouble motion tracking some Red footage for rolling shutter and skew and that....

I have also seen that you do get some really bad rolling shutter stuff IF you shoot with a fast shutter...


Now, if' you'd like to prove me wrong.. Do a test where you pan at 1/1000 th shutter and see what's up. For that, the HVX works like a champ and the jury is out on if the EX can do such things.
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Anything in particular you'd like me to pan against? I'll shoot some footage tomorrow and have footage up by tomorrow evening with metadata. We don't have our convergent yet as that is the final answer to all this mumbo jumbo, but whatever.
 
Just whatever you'd like. I think it would be good to confirm or put to rest this stuff. Personally I really like the EX cam. THe LCD is simply to die for and it's low light capabilities are awesome. I was highly impressed by it and I don't really like Sony cams, but they did something right with this one. My buddy who has one said that he thinks that Sony messed up because the quality is so close to the F900. He put both on pro monitors on a gig and there's some quality difference due to the lens and that, but is it enough to have something that costs so many times more?


I just think it would be good to see how things work with the cam with a fast shutter and without. All of the fanboy stuff on both sides is funny. I know I'm guilty of doing it, a lot more after I bought my HVX as kind of teritorial posturing.. and also to help me think I bought the best cam.. and at the time in January of 06, it was the best cam for sure and I owe a lot of that to Barry and this website for allowing me to pick that option.


For all of us, this competition is great between the cam companies. I think the 170 will make it interesting and then next year, if the Red turns out to be what it claims, then Scarlet will make it all even more so.


cheers and let's see what happens with the cam and then maybe people can either confirm or deny the rolling shutter stuff.


j
 
I'm going to assume that the answer to the question that started this thread is no, there has not been a detailed image comparison between the 200A and the EX-1.

SFX
 
"Eastside is da best!"

"No! Westside is the best!"

"Uh uh! Eastside is da best!"

"NO WAY! Westside is the best!"

and then a placating voice of reason. Thankyou Justyn.

I've seen EX1 footage with some horrible rolling shutter artifacting. PerroneFord, it happens, any number of people can vouch for it. Can you work around it with the right shutter speed and cam settings? I don't know. But if you can, good on you! That doesn't change the fact that the camera is prone to it.

Personally, if I have to employ 'workarounds' when using my camera, it's not the right camera for me. The HVX suits me fine and I'm super happy for you that you're loving the EX1.

*plays soothing music*
 
No one is denying that the rolling shutter problem exists. The question is under what conditions does it occur, and how can it be avoided.

The HVX (and thusly the HPX170) also has limitations though they are more difficult to work around.

I agree this bickering is silly. However it seems that the EX1 folks are willing to stipulate to the cameras issues such as they are, but do note that the problems seem grossly overstated in most instances.

No one seems to like the new kid on the block except the owners. I wonder if the RED guys feel the same way.



lipslide said:
I've seen EX1 footage with some horrible rolling shutter artifacting. PerroneFord, it happens, any number of people can vouch for it. Can you work around it with the right shutter speed and cam settings? I don't know. But if you can, good on you! That doesn't change the fact that the camera is prone to it.

Personally, if I have to employ 'workarounds' when using my camera, it's not the right camera for me. The HVX suits me fine and I'm super happy for you that you're loving the EX1.
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I'm in the market for one of these cameras myself. I have been studying all kinds of footage from HVX200/a, EX1 and EX3. I'm on the list for a 170.
I see how popular the Panasonic HVX 200/a cameras have been. That said, I'm finding that the EX1/EX3 footage looks "Far Better". It also looks like there is a higher level of filmakers using the Sony cameras.

Things I like about EX1/3 footage:

- Bigger bolder image presents.
- Sharper image.
- Interchangeable lens on EX3

Things I like about the HVX200/a

- The size of the 170
- Tons of people know how to operate the camera.
- The price point.

As you can see I'm new to this forum. Not new to the industry though.
Are my observations accurate?

frisco
 
Frisco, just....

use any of them correctly and they both are awesome, they are different cameras, different priced, different brands, im not suggesting you just random it, but really, it's impossible to make a list like that and compare. I suggest you go hold them both in your hands and see which one you fall for, from there you work your way to the best possible image!

cheers,
 
I've seen EX1 footage with some horrible rolling shutter artifacting.
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Flash photography isn't kind to CMOS, but the skew and wobble are WAY overblown... said from personal experience.

No matter what camera someone shoots with it's gonna be great... but I can attest this EX1 shoots jaw-dropping quality iimages and I have yet to have to 'work around' any rolling shutter issues after shooting aggressive handheld footage and pans faster than I'd ever use in a 'real' shoot. It's overhyped, usually by people who don't own one. The people who own them recognize the 'possibility' of rolling shutter issues but praise this camera. People are lining up 'round the world for RED Ones... damn that rolling shutter! :^D

"I agree this bickering is silly. However it seems that the EX1 folks are willing to stipulate to the cameras issues such as they are, but do note that the problems seem grossly overstated in most instances."

No one seems to like the new kid on the block except the owners. I wonder if the RED guys feel the same way.
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BINGO!

Personally, if I have to employ 'workarounds' when using my camera, it's not the right camera for me.
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Since I need 'true' 1920x1080 HD resolution as part of my distribution, it's hard to find a 'work around' for that in a camera that doesn't met the specs. Especially a small form camera like the EX1 where I can take on adventures... especially under $10 grand. Unbelievable! The resolution and sharpness on this puppy is mind boggling! But if you don't need these kinds of resolution specs, the other cameras in this price range are fantastic too. Whatever you get you'll love.

A side note... I'm doing wilderness adventure footage and if I saw any signs of rolling shutter in the testing I'm doing, I would've returned this camera after the first week, if not day one. I simply can't afford rolling shutter issues with what I'm doing... and thankfully it's not there. People would be returning this thing all over the place if it was any kind of serious issue. The owner's love it... that should attest to what they're seeing with it. I would think anyway. Owners love the HVX too... so I know it must be great.
 
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I have shot 200A and EX-1 side-by-side on a test narrative and I can tell you that they're both good enough. The EX-1's resolution makes it feel more like RED footage in the end. I am pretty confident t hat in the future I can mix EX-1 with RED having no issue at all.

It's also slightly "plastic" feeling as far as the image goes. Certainly has the F900 feel.

The 200A looks more like an organic filmstock to me. Softer because it's lacking resolution, but not bad at all.

Did the EX-1 present rolling shutter: Uh... hell yes.

Did the HVX200A lack resolution: Uh... hell yes.

If the EX-1 was a more popular camera amongst people wanting to shoot narrative here in LA would I have one? Absolutely. No doubt about it.

Does the EX-1 hold a candle to the 200/200A's reputation? No. Not a chance.

So, choose what you are: Someone who needs to make money or someone who wants to shoot for themselves. I can't stand the thought of losing out on hundreds and even thousands a week because I don't have the most-requested Camera in America.
 
I think there are some unfair comments here to both sides...

The HVX has been a staple small format camera for several years now. Its a VERY good camera.

Concerning your pros and cons:

  • The EX1/EX3 do shoot a sharper image than the HVX. No denying that.
  • The EX3 does have interchangeable lenses, but at significant cost.
  • The HPX will have some incredible features, but won't have any more resolution than the current HVX200a.
  • The size of the 170 is going to be a distinct advantage over the EX3 or the EX1 for handheld work. No doubt about it.
  • The price point. The HVX is more expensive to shoot than the EX1/EX3. The HPX170 will be also.
frisco said:
I'm in the market for one of these cameras myself. I have been studying all kinds of footage from HVX200/a, EX1 and EX3. I'm on the list for a 170.
I see how popular the Panasonic HVX 200/a cameras have been. That said, I'm finding that the EX1/EX3 footage looks "Far Better". It also looks like there is a higher level of filmakers using the Sony cameras.

Things I like about EX1/3 footage:

- Bigger bolder image presents.
- Sharper image.
- Interchangeable lens on EX3

Things I like about the HVX200/a

- The size of the 170
- Tons of people know how to operate the camera.
- The price point.

As you can see I'm new to this forum. Not new to the industry though.
Are my observations accurate?

frisco
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Can you post where you are seeing better imagery? The stuff I've seen by Philip Bloom and others while admirably sharp leaves me unconvinced that the camera is capable of doing subtle, silky colors. I have yet to see pleasant, realistic skin tones from an EX1, for instance. Link for an instance of good skin tones, if you have one, I'd be very curious. I'm not saying the EX1 cannot handle this, just that I haven't seen it do so yet. All I see are EX1 examples where the colors are saturated -- and not always pleasantly so -- and unreal, and while that may be fine for a certain kind of footage, it utterly fails for people-centric work that isn't designed to be heavily stylized.
 
Just so I understand...

You are saying that you have some questions that the EX1, because of it's optics, sensors, or codec, is potentially unable to produce subtly, correctly colored skin tones like the HVX?

Wow, ok.


I'll post my pan tests from this afternoon, and I'll bow out of this. Once things reach this level, there is just no way forward.
 
I don't think he was saying that an EX1 can't produce natural skin tones, but that he's never seen an example of it.
 
mrbrycel said:
Also take into consideration the time it takes to switch from each mode. I shoot a lot of skateboarding and "spur of the moment" type of stuff. If I had to wait 14 seconds or however long it took for the EX1 to get ready to shoot again, I'd miss a lot of important footage. The HVX is ready quickly AND can be set to record time before you hit record.
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Lol, then keep filming instead of switching to media mode every 3 minutes to show yer skater friends what they just did
 
Yes, I only meant that I'd never seen an example of it, whatever the reason. I'm definitely not trying to be the least bit contentious here.

I've looked on various blogs, Vimeo, etc. and never seen a skin tone by EX1 that I felt looked natural or as good as the HVX. Prove me wrong with a link is all I'm saying. With all these comparison tests that have been posted, not one I've read does a simple skin tone test. (The skin tones at Bloom's site, for instance, often look jaundiced to me. maybe that's a post thing he's doing for stylistic reasons, I don't know.)
 
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I've been going to the Vimeo site and using search for EX1 Tons of footage, hard to tell what has been colored or not. Is there another site to look at footage?

Didn't mean to start a pissing contest here..... I know every camera is going to have strong and weak points.

It's just to me the overall "imagery" of the EX1-EX3 looks much better.

Thats just me and my observations.

frisco


mpalmer12345 said:
Can you post where you are seeing better imagery? The stuff I've seen by Philip Bloom and others while admirably sharp leaves me unconvinced that the camera is capable of doing subtle, silky colors. I have yet to see pleasant, realistic skin tones from an EX1, for instance. Link for an instance of good skin tones, if you have one, I'd be very curious. I'm not saying the EX1 cannot handle this, just that I haven't seen it do so yet. All I see are EX1 examples where the colors are saturated -- and not always pleasantly so -- and unreal, and while that may be fine for a certain kind of footage, it utterly fails for people-centric work that isn't designed to be heavily stylized.
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frisco said:
I've been going to the Vimeo site and using search for EX1 Tons of footage, hard to tell what has been colored or not. Is there another site to look at footage?

Didn't mean to start a pissing contest here..... I know every camera is going to have strong and weak points.

It's just to me the overall "imagery" of the EX1-EX3 looks much better.

Thats just me and my observations.

frisco
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Yup, Vimeo has a LOT of EX1 clips. Overall, these clips look VERY good! For example, the "on safari with EX1" clip has some nice production quality and good IQ. However, the fast pans toward the end of the clip might illustrate the codec limitations. Tough call as a pan across grass is about as tough as it gets for digital video.

Regards
JohnG
 
John Godden said:
Tough call as a pan across grass is about as tough as it gets for digital video.

Regards
JohnG
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Wait until you see my pans from this afternoon. 50% zoom against fine foilage. All 720p footage, shutter rates from shutter off, 1/48, 1/500, 1/1000, 1/2000.

Some organic with the wind blowing the foilage against a static background, some medium pans, some whip pans with pauses to let the codec catch up. The render is finishing now, and I'll be uploading on Vimeo in 30 minutes. It's a HUGE file so It'll probably take several hours until done.

But I am about to shoot a skin test also.
 
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