HVX200A vs. EX-1

S

SFX

Active member
Has anyone yet conducted tests comparing the 200A with the EX-1? I see a 200 compared but not the 200A.

SFX
 
While I have a great deal of respect for Barry I'd take the last paragraph with a grain of salt...

Well, frankly, it certainly improves its position &em; it now matches the EX1 for 1080P sensitivity, it probably comes very close to matching the EX1 for noise, and it's a whole lot less expensive. There are still many differences between those two cameras, but if you wanted an HVX but were tempted by the EX1's low light performance and low-noise imagery, the HVX200A is now much more competitive on those fronts (still not as sharp, but then again the HVX200A doesn't have any of the rolling-shutter issues or build quality issues that affect the EX1, and it's $1400 cheaper)
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The 200A is not a lot less expensive. B&H shows it at $5199 with a 16GB P2 card. Enough to record 16 minutes of 1080 video. You'd need 4 to get an hour. Purchasing 3 more 16GB P2 cards (@ $849 each according to B&H) is an additional $2547. Add that to the $5199 camera price and you're at $7749. The EX1 lists at $6449 at B&H and comes with an hour of media already.

The EX1, even by Barry's admission still shows less noise, and has a sharper picture. The amazing thing is that it offers that better noise performance on a 1920x1080 native image unlike the 960x540 native image of the HVX200A. The "build quality" issues that were problematic when first released have been solved, though under some VERY limited circumstances the rolling shutter could be a problem for some event videographers.

So while the 200A is certainly an improved camera, I think the real contender in the battle with the EX1 is going to be the HPX170. The 200A just isn't going to get there in resolution, noise, clarity, or real cost. To some degree, the HPX170 is also going to face similar issues with resolution and P2 card costs. Offboard recording is probably the best way to go for both cameras and more economical in the long run.
 
PerroneFord said:
The amazing thing is that it offers that better noise performance on a 1920x1080 native image unlike the 960x540 native image of the HVX200A.
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I'm pretty sure that Panasonic's new sensor block that it's putting on the 200A, the 170, and the 150 comes out to about 1280x720 photosites, thus showing why Barry considered the 200A to be much sharper than the 200.
 
Aroon_Narayanan said:
I'm pretty sure that Panasonic's new sensor block that it's putting on the 200A, the 170, and the 150 comes out to about 1280x720 photosites, thus showing why Barry considered the 200A to be much sharper than the 200.
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I have not seen this anywhere. I've been on Panasonic's site, and all over the internet. I'd think if Panny did a MAJOR upgrade like changing the CCDs on the 200A and the HPX, it would be widely reported.
 
Still pixel shifting is not upsampling. It's more like using a Bayer pattern on a CMOS sensor.

The EX-1, however, does produce a much sharper image, as long as you are not panning the camera.
 
PraetorDrew said:
Still pixel shifting is not upsampling. It's more like using a Bayer pattern on a CMOS sensor.

The EX-1, however, does produce a much sharper image, as long as you are not panning the camera.
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Let's not get into this argument again. It was my understanding that using a Bayer pattern on a CMOS sensor (like RED) is actually subsampling the sensor. I think it's fair to say that's a bit different than what's going on with the HVX.

And can we please stop with the knocks on the EX1 and the fallacy that it's not sharp when panning. There is enough footage out there now that simply refutes this. I've shot high detail pans and zooms at 1080p and 720p to test it for myself.
 
thus showing why Barry considered the 200A to be much sharper than the 200
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I didn't notice a sharpness increase in 200A vs. 200. Sensitivity and noise and smear were all greatly improved, but sharpness seemed equivalent.

As for EX1 vs. HVX200A, I will agree with PerroneFord that that's not really the comparison to make, it's more like EX1 vs. HPX170, and even then that's not really the best comparison. To me the best comparison is EX1 vs. HMC150. There you're getting long-GOP 4:2:0 vs. long-GOP 4:2:0, and if someone wants a long-GOP 4:2:0 system, why not look at the comparison offered by the HMC150? It should have equivalent video performance to the HPX170. You give up variable frame rates and HD-SDI, but you get HDMI and a way, way lower price tag, and the recording time argument goes heavily in the HMC150's favor. Your cost-per-minute is 1/8 as much with the HMC150 vs. the EX1. And the camcorder cost will be about half (estimated $3500 vs. $6500). Granted the EX1 will still be a little sharper, but I think a whole lot of people are going to say "big fat hairy deal" in comparison to the cost savings.

Then, you'll have clear and distinct market segmentation and easier choices for everyone. If you want incredible bang for the buck, HMC150. If you want low-cost variable frame rates with HD-SDI and an instantly-editable format, and can afford the price increase, go HPX170. If you want the sharpest image around and can work within its limitations, and can afford the price increase, there's the EX1.
 
Excellent points Barry. Each camera brings a different set of things to the table, and I feel Sony might have had a slam dunk if they had choses CompactFlash versus SxS simply to get the media costs down.

The HMC150 is a game-changing camera in it's price range much like the DVX was. Personally, I've always felt the HVX was something of a stopgap camera, though one that did amazing things. I think the HPX corrects much of what people griped about with the HVX except for the resolution issues (both on the sensor and the codec).

It will be interesting to see if Sony moves to commodity recording media first, or if Panasonic moves to 1920x1080 first in the under $10k market.

Things are certainly heating up quickly in this market segment.
 
Also take into consideration the time it takes to switch from each mode. I shoot a lot of skateboarding and "spur of the moment" type of stuff. If I had to wait 14 seconds or however long it took for the EX1 to get ready to shoot again, I'd miss a lot of important footage. The HVX is ready quickly AND can be set to record time before you hit record.

Also, EX1 shoots only HD, so if you need to shoot SD, you can't. This all depends what you'll be doing with your camera, but in my case I might still have many clients that request 4:3 SD footage.

Ive always been a sony user and when the EX1 came out i decided that was the one im going for. The more time to an SxS card than a P2 card, the marked length lens, and the native 1080 CMOS turned me on to it. But personally, the 14 second wait time between modes and the rolling shutter were enough to turn me off real quick.
 
mrbrycel said:
Also, EX1 shoots only HD, so if you need to shoot SD, you can't. This all depends what you'll be doing with your camera, but in my case I might still have many clients that request 4:3 SD footage.
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This seems like an odd statement. I assume you have purchased Hollywood movies on VHS and DVD. They weren't shot that way. Rendering out to SD-DVD is trivial.

mrbrycel said:
Ive always been a sony user and when the EX1 came out i decided that was the one im going for. The more time to an SxS card than a P2 card, the marked length lens, and the native 1080 CMOS turned me on to it. But personally, the 14 second wait time between modes and the rolling shutter were enough to turn me off real quick.
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Where did you hear it took 14 seconds to switch modes? And did you try one to see if the rolling shutter was an issue? Doesn't seem to bother the RED guys much.
 
PerroneFord said:
I don't mean recording. I mean sensors.
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It's a little more complicated than that. CCD sensors are analog and the image is recorded onto a digital medium. There is no 1:1 pixel correspondence, so it's hard to say that it is or isn't a certain resolution. It's whatever it gets recorded to, although an itty bitty CCD array would give you a poor quality picture, whereas a big one would give you a much better picture.
 
There are so many things that go into it... for example, you could have a 1920x1080 Bayer sensor, and it wouldn't compare to the sharpness you'd get from three 1920x1080 sensors... I think what we're all looking for is 1920x1080 worth of detail in the final image, regardless of how it arrives at that, right?
 
PerroneFord said:
This seems like an odd statement. I assume you have purchased Hollywood movies on VHS and DVD. They weren't shot that way. Rendering out to SD-DVD is trivial.



Where did you hear it took 14 seconds to switch modes? And did you try one to see if the rolling shutter was an issue? Doesn't seem to bother the RED guys much.
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I read a few places that the EX1 takes 14 seconds or so to go from playback mode to record mode. Was I misinformed?

I've never heard of rolling shutter issues on the Red, but I have for the EX1. But I can't say for myself, I've never tried it.

Another thing I read (and please correct me if I'm wrong, because Im not certain) is that the sxs files have to be taken through some type of conversion software before being able to edit, where as P2 files can be directly imported to FCP.
 
mrbrycel said:
I read a few places that the EX1 takes 14 seconds or so to go from playback mode to record mode. Was I misinformed?
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No, that's what it takes.

I've never heard of rolling shutter issues on the Red, but I have for the
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The Red One, at Build 14 or 15, had identical rolling shutter issues to the EX1. Jannard says they've been improved for build 16. I had Build 16 tested for HMI issues and they appeared to be every bit as prevalent as in Build 14. I bought a roll of 35mm film to test skew issues against a 35mm camera, but I haven't gotten to run that test yet.
 
Barry, are you talking about going from media mode to the camera mode? Yea, I could see that. However, with last clip review I haven't needed to do that. And with the nature of my work, I rarely need to review clips in a hurry. Generally, only after I am done with my recordings since there are no pauses.

And yes, the RED seems to have similar rolling shutter issues, but doesn't seem to be that big an issue for buyers. Though I suspect a far larger proportion of RED owners will have complete control over their lighting and camera movement.
 
My buddy has the EX and he does complain about the jump time between formats.


One thing that I'd like to see is how well the EX camera handles motion tracking as a friend had some real trouble motion tracking some Red footage for rolling shutter and skew and that. Wonder if it's the same with the EX. Personally, I love what I can get out of the HVX in terms of greenscreen and motion tracking.


I have also seen that you do get some really bad rolling shutter stuff IF you shoot with a fast shutter. It's even stated on the forums. If you want to avoid the rolling shutter blues then you have to turn offf the shutter and go with the syncho scan or whatever it's called on the Sony. Now, that is a bummer as I shoot a lot of fast shutter stuff. Now, if' you'd like to prove me wrong.. Do a test where you pan at 1/1000 th shutter and see what's up. For that, the HVX works like a champ and the jury is out on if the EX can do such things.
 
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