HVX200 editing. Performance vs.Cost. Mac or PC?

Barry, thanks for the comment and the info.

Yeah, I think I'll wait and get a mac pro with Leopard, which apparently according to a mac sales person will come with a thing called 'bootcamp'? to easily allow both operating systems to be run on the MAC, and then stick to WinXP :)

Regards
Jon
 
alpi69 said:
MACs are still more $$ than a custom-made PC. Macs are not more stable at all. I got that confirmed from Apple users.


I also want to be compatible with the rest of the world and not only the "self named creative elite".
Click to expand...

You have to be kidding.

1. My MacPro hasn't crashed since August when I purchased it. In fact, I haven't a crash on eithe this Mac, or the previous G5 desktops, a PB G4 and a MacBook in five years - at least.

But these are editing machines -- no games, etc.

2. As to compatibility -- I edit in FCP and author in DVD SP. I run After Effects, PS, Illustrator and MS-Word.

Not much else is out ther that is incompatible with these programs.
 
1) You can execute firmware updates only on WinXP. An OSX user cannot update their firmware for any P2 product.

This true, but not a real obstacle.
How many firmware updates have occurred for p2 cards?
Also, you can run HVX200 firmware updates on a Mac.



2) You can format cards on WinXP. You can't on OSX. OSX can "erase" cards, but can't perform a proper format.

I don't why this is an issue.
Also p2 Genie, as I understand it, will soon have an erase function.



3) You can run the free P2 Viewer application on WinXP.
OSX doesn't have a comparable tool; you can buy P2 Log
for $100 or use FCP but there's no P2 Viewer for OSX.

I installed the free p2 viewer on parallels on my MacPro.
I have say that p2 log is ten times this app, and it exports as well.
It also repairs. I thought I was missing something, but apparently not.



4) You can copy cards with 100% reliable performance on WinXP. MacOS occasionally displays some level of instability in copying cards, resulting in either false reports of "corrupt clips" or in actual glitches in the footage. Neither situation EVER occurs under WinXP.

OS X has some issues with some imports as reported here.
I've never had a problem, but also I've seen reports of issues on PCs as well.



5) Modern Mac laptops have eliminated the ability to import from the cards, as they've eliminated the PCMCIA slot. You can still buy modern WinXP laptops that offer the PCMCIA slot for direct card offloads. Soon this shouldn't be a deciding factor because the duel-systems adapter should be out. Of course, this point is rather moot since the Mac doesn't provide for 100% reliable card imports anyway.

Try to find a recently built PC laptop with a PC Card Bus.
They are going the way of EC/34 and EC/54.
You can still find them, but you can also find a PB G4.




6) OSX has no provision for understanding, working with, importing, or playing the MXF file format used by P2. Every major WinXP editor either has that capability natively, or can use RayLight to incorporate that capability. MacOS requires you to use FCP (or P2 Log) to convert the MXF files into Quicktime .MOV files.

This will change. And soon with NAB is my guess.
At least to me not having the meta data has as yet to be an issue.




8) The P2 Store works better on WinXP. MacOS occasionally doesn't mount all of a P2 Store's volumes accurately, which -- if you're not paying careful attention -- may result in you not copying all your footage over. Which can result in lost footage. This situation *never* occurs on WinXP. Also, WinXP can easily and accurately differentiate and enumerate all the volumes on a P2 Store. MacOS doesn't -- it just presents you with 15 different "No Name" volumes, a silly behavior that makes data management unnecessarily inconvenient.

p2 Store has issues on the Mac.
I've also see reports of issues with PCs.



I have a great deal of respect for Barry, but I'm certain that he would readily admit that his recommendation is only that and it's based on the issues delineated above.
I don't see these as significant workflow issues on a Mac, and feel that both platforms suffer from deficiencies based on how new the HVX200.
That is shaking out on the PC, and will shake out come NAB on a Mac with FCP and Leopard.

What is interesting is that with all these supposed issues with the Mac, the larger percentage - up 75% as claimed by Barry - are Mac users.
That seems to fly in the face of the argument for the PCs.

Your mileage may vary.
 
Last edited:
I base my opinions on having consulted with companies that are moving to the HVX and exploring the workflow options. I laid it out the way I see it.

1) For firmware updates, you ask if it's a problem? Apparently every P2 product will need a firmware update before it can work with the 16GB cards, so yes I'd say it's a problem. Panasonic really, REALLY should provide firmware update software for Macs. But the fact is, they don't -- so you have to decide what you're going to do about that, if you choose to run exclusively on MacOS. And how can you run the firmware update on a Mac? I'm talking about MacOS here, not "running Windows under some sort of emulator". I don't care what the hardware is, I'm talking about the OS.

2) why it's an issue? I don't know if it is or not, but with Macs having the various issues with P2 compatibility, I have to wonder if that's not part of it.

3) P2 Log is better than P2 Viewer. But it's another $100. Just pointing out the differences.

5) Finding a recent PC laptop with a PC Card is rather easy; I just did it a few months ago. That's changing, yes -- but everything changes. I'm talking about today. The guy's looking to spend money today.

6) Do you have any info on this? That would be a night-and-day revolution for the Mac and (combined with them fixing whatever the reliability issue is!) would change my attitude towards the viability of their platform about 175 degrees. Maybe not a full 180 degrees (that still depends on things like P2 firmware updating) but native MXF editing in FCP would be a massive huge amazing improvement. I have never heard a single word from any Apple rep that gives me encouragement on that issue though. So I ask -- have you heard anything? Or are you just assuming that they'll do it?

As far as "gospel" I'm not trying to lay out anything as "gospel", but I do believe that everything I laid out is factually accurate and not the result of an opinion.

Is FCP a better editor than EDIUS? Probably; the full FCP Suite is certainly more powerful than EDIUS by itself. Those are matters where opinion comes into play. I'm trying to stay away from the opinion and point out where the facts lie; the opinion comes in when someone decides whether those facts are important to their workflow or not. You (David) seem to have decided that they're not. I have decided that they are. But whether or not they're important to us as individuals, they are still facts that need to be weighed by someone making this decision.
 
nudge said:
Any potential problems running WinXP on a Macbook Pro concerning P2 workflow from your experiences?
Click to expand...
No, other than the MBP costs about 50% more than a comparably-equipped WinXP system and doesn't offer the PCMCIA slot or an SD card slot (for editing scene files or metadata). I was originally going to go with the MBP but couldn't overcome those restrictions. And MBPs are going to have the same POTENTIAL issue with card copying that afflicts SOME other Macs.

But it should run WinXP just fine.
 
Barry_Green said:
And MBPs are going to have the same POTENTIAL issue with card copying that afflicts SOME other Macs.
Click to expand...

Though Barry you mean copying cards from the P2 store on a MBP in WinXP should normally give the same 100% success that you would expect on a PC? Thanks
 
I would hope so, but I don't know for sure. Copying the cards to the P2 Store should be 100% reliable. But is it 100% reliable to import a volume from the P2 Store to the Mac? That one I don't know. I do know that there's an issue with some of the P2 Store volumes sometimes just not showing up on the Mac.

The issue I'm referring to is that when you copy a card using a Mac (whether from a G4's slot, or using the camera as a card reader, etc) then sometimes, rarely but sometimes, it glitches the data that gets copied over. And that affects Intel Macs as well as G4 and G5 Macs.

If you did your card copying on an MBP in WinXP mode instead of MacOS mode, I would assume (and this is only assuming!) that it would be 100% reliable.
 
Since I'm merging towards a total P2 workflow, I gotta say the PC wins hands down. I don't want to fight "hacked" support issues that I keep hearing here.

Besides, now that NewTek is working towards directly supporting DVCPro .mxf, it makes my Post Production life much easier.

Feel free to buy whatever you want. But it's PC for us.
 
Barry_Green said:
No, other than the MBP costs about 50% more than a comparably-equipped WinXP system and doesn't offer the PCMCIA slot or an SD card slot (for editing scene files or metadata). I was originally going to go with the MBP but couldn't overcome those restrictions. And MBPs are going to have the same POTENTIAL issue with card copying that afflicts SOME other Macs.
Click to expand...

That's like saying that a Yugo, because it has a motor and wheels is the same as a Porsche.

Compare a comparably equipped Dell with a Macintosh at the high end, not at the low end. Why buy a cheap PC? It's a cheap PC for a reason. . . components.

Set aside the Dell's poorly implemented firewire protocol and the Mac's poorly implemented USB2 protocol.

Compare dual core Xeon processor with the video cards, RAM in a stock configuration.

Factor out the Microsoft bundled products in the PC and the Mac bundled products.

The Mac is $1K cheaper, and it can run Windows XP both of a HD in parallels pretty fast.

I installed Parallels and XP on my MacPro, and I am using the Cinema Craft Basic mpeg2 encoder and the p2 Viewer (not impressed) from Panasonic.
 
David S. I have been sitting with Apple guys often the last year and in many sessions there machine crashes and those are editing or graphics machines.
If you keep your machine clean apparently nothing goes wrong with it as you say yourself. But it is no advantage to your beloved Apple, because Windows is just as stable/unstable as Apple.
What is bad in Windows is the fact that all those .dll files add up if you have many programmes on it. In that case you should re-install the OS every two years. My machine is two years old and still starts as fast and closes as fast as it did in the beginning.

Anyway my machine can be built for under 600 now including WinXP; another 600 gives you Edius and you can edit 720p easily
 
Barry_Green said:
6) Do you have any info on this? That would be a night-and-day revolution for the Mac and (combined with them fixing whatever the reliability issue is!) would change my attitude towards the viability of their platform about 175 degrees. Maybe not a full 180 degrees (that still depends on things like P2 firmware updating) but native MXF editing in FCP would be a massive huge amazing improvement.

I have never heard a single word from any Apple rep that gives me encouragement on that issue though. So I ask -- have you heard anything? Or are you just assuming that they'll do it?
Click to expand...

I have some information on it. But there is no secret that Leopard is going to be a launching pad for a new FCS upgrade. That seems to be around NAB.

As to gospel, I removed that because I didn't want my response to appear as attacking anybody, particularly you.

My point is that many people, me included, have a tremendous amount of respect for you, but you aren't Mac based. And as I understand it, you wanted to be, but YOUR WORKFLOW wasn't consistent with the points you made about Mac deficiencies.

I am, and I have not experienced the issues that many report here. You won't find people coming here and saying "I don't have p2 import issues." It's the nature of thes type of boards.

I work without issue with FCP 5.1.2, p2 Log, and a MacPro. I run a clean system, and rarely span clips. I just don't have 95% of the issues noted here. I suspect I'm not the only one.

I don't have any information on what firmware updates need to be made to use 16 Gb cards. Nor do I plan to move to them because of issues with backups, and download times.

If Panasonic wants to ignore the larger part of its user base, that's the company's decision.

I have to say I am not impressed with many of those platform specific elections by Panasonic.

Let's see what NAB brings.
 
David S. said:
That's like saying that a Yugo, because it has a motor and wheels is the same as a Porsche.
Click to expand...
David, come on. Give some benefit of the doubt. I compared my loaded-to-the-gills Sony SZ340 with Core 2 Duo against the MBP with Core Duo. Same RAM, hard disk, both with advanced graphics cards. The MBP is way more expensive.

The Mac Pro? That's still a deal, and I already said that earlier. But for P2 workflow (and specifically for P2 workflow) the MBP does less and costs more.

Compare a comparably equipped Dell with a Macintosh at the high end, not at the low end. Why buy a cheap PC? It's a cheap PC for a reason. . . components.

Set aside the Dell's poorly implemented firewire protocol and the Mac's poorly implemented USB2 protocol.

Compare dual core Xeon processor with the video cards, RAM in a stock configuration.

Factor out the Microsoft bundled products in the PC and the Mac bundled products.

The Mac is $1K cheaper, and it can run Windows XP both of a HD in parallels pretty fast.
Click to expand...
You're talking about Mac Pro. We're not, we're talking about MacBook Pro.
 
alpi69 said:
David S. I have been sitting with Apple guys often the last year and in many sessions there machine crashes and those are editing or graphics machines.

If you keep your machine clean apparently nothing goes wrong with it as you say yourself. But it is no advantage to your beloved Apple, because Windows is just as stable/unstable as Apple.

What is bad in Windows is the fact that all those .dll files add up if you have many programmes on it. In that case you should re-install the OS every two years. My machine is two years old and still starts as fast and closes as fast as it did in the beginning.

Anyway my machine can be built for under 600 now including WinXP; another 600 gives you Edius and you can edit 720p easily
Click to expand...

1. Mine doesn't crash. I run a clean system. Any body who doesn't in a production environment is asking for issues.

2. My Mac isn't "beloved;" it's a production tool. It is unaffected by viruses and malware. It doesn't and hasn't crashed in years.

3. You can edit on a PC for $600.00. I wouldn't trust my production to a tool that has that price tag. If it costs $600.00 and a Xeon based Dell runs $3500, there has to be a reason. And it just isn't margins.

4. I reinstall my OS every big upgrade or every four months -- whatever comes first.
 
Barry:

I'm an ex attorney. I'm not interested in the facts.

I'm interested in winning the argument.

:)

In any case, I wish the MacBookPros has a PC Card slot, or the duel systems adapter.

Be that as it may, it's time to move on with this discussion, because all the points have been made.

Fix the p2 card import issue and have FCP edit natively.

Add an adapter to the MacBookPro for p2 import

Have Panasonic work with Apple to resolve firmware upgrade issues

And we are good to go.

take care
 
Barry addressed a good point: the HVX is much more compatible with PCs.

However, also consider compatibility within the film and television industries. Most of us have Macs, and it will be easier for you to "play" with others in your field if you are using the same OS. Walk into any post house or production company and it's likely that they will be using Mac OS on a majority of their machines. I know it shouldn't matter, but it does. My experience is that sharing footage between different platforms often leads to compatibility headaches.
 
On a less profound level (its always me me me hehe), if i were to play it safe and have both platforms on my MBP, how would it be wise to partition the drive spacewise? Not an expert so it might not be simple to repartition again (?) Got about 50/60gigs left and would like to use the WinXP side to download from the P2 store (to an external drive?), possibly try EDIUS or DVrack, maybe use the P2 viewer but probably end up cutting on FCS. Always just keeping project files on my apps drive and working my media off external. Your views are always valuable.
 
You know, there are other sources for Windows machines other than Dell. Not sure how this all turned into Mac vs. Dell over the last couple of years. It's a red herring, and probably partially done so as to try to minimize one of the bigger weaknesses of Macs -- the price tag, the bang for the buck.

Building a PC isn't that hard. You have to know what you're doing, but it doesn't take long to learn. And the price savings is substantial, even on premium components.

I say this because of the title of this thread -- performance vs. cost. My machine was built for about half the cost of less-comparable Intel Macs.

That really ought to count for something here.

You could go with a dual-boot machine, but again, strictly looking at advantages for HVX/P2 workflow, you need to gague the extra cost of that against the amount of time you're actually going to spend in the Mac OS. Will it be worth it?

It's an individual choice, but it's a factor which you should consider.
 
David S. said:
3. You can edit on a PC for $600.00. I wouldn't trust my production to a tool that has that price tag. If it costs $600.00 and a Xeon based Dell runs $3500, there has to be a reason. And it just isn't margins.

.
Click to expand...

lol, no you misunderstood. I didn´t buy it for 600. It´s what it would cost now to build it with the specs I run right now (3.06Ghz, 1GB RAM, FX5700grfx). The machine I am currently planning will be around 1.500. But that´s all you need to have a powerful Core 2 Duo machine. And I build every machine myself for years. Saves a lot of money, but takes only 2 hours (including ordering the parts via Internet and waitng for XP to install). My point was you can reallly edit on a small PC. And believe me there are huge margins in Dell machines.
When you build a Windows based PC there is one part that is the most important and is also the problem with the Windows reputation: the mainboard. In cheap Windows machines are cheap mainboards with dodgy BIOS. I always use a decent mainboard (usually ASUS, about 1 year on the market, so the BIOS is tested). Since Apple builds the machines they always have a good combo hence should be more stable out of every box. But once you have a good mainboard, enough cooling and take care what software you really need on your machine it runs just as smooth as you´d expect it to.

I actually was surprised when I started with Edius that it handles 720p so easily with my two year old box. But 1080 it slows due to lack of CPU and RAM. So Core2Duo, 2GB-RAM here I come.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top