HVX versus the Varicam

E

euge04

Active member
The cameras are very different in design and prices but what are they?

What can I expect to get for my money come this December? What will I have and not have when compared with the high-end Varicam?

I wanted to try and use this camera to shoot some stock footage but I want to find out what I can expect from this camera in terms of performance.

Thanks!
 
We really won't know until we see pictures, and that won't be for a while yet.

A Varicam has bigger chips, better glass, more variable frame rates, etc. The HVX will give you 1080i and P, which the Varicam doesn't.

Odds are good that the majority of shots will intercut nicely, and Rush from EVS has mentioned that many pre-orders are from Varicam owners looking for a "B" camera...

Time will tell...

Jim Arthurs
 
Hopefully good, but the Varicam has 2/3 inch chips and a lens that costs a lot more than $5500, which is the price of the HVX. You are only going to get so much for $5500, but like Jim mentioned, we really won't know until we see the pictures.

Although there are a few people that have seen HVX footage projected on a big screen, maybe they can help out here??
 
Varicam owners........ thats like Ferrari owners...... and LAmborghini owners.... Few and far between.....

Who has the money for a Varicam? even if you are a Pro.... isnt it like 100,000$ with lens?


oh wait..... Maybe production companies.....
 
i was going to put this as a separate post, but i'll just ask my question here...

is low-light capability strictly attributed to the size of the CCD, or does it have to with color information as well? will the 4:2:2 effectively give the camera better low-light capability?

i would expect both would make a difference... if someone could list the attributes of the video camera from most to least important when dealing with light conditions that would be great!... i'm assuming with 1/24 shutter speed in DVCPRO HD the HVX would perform quite well, but it would be nice to know how much better the Varicam would be in night-shot conditions.

thanks much.
 
Light sensitivity has mostly to do with pixel size. If a chip has a pixel size of 3 microns, it is likely to be less light sensitive than one with a pixel size of 6 microns. For the same size sensor, the 3 micron pixel chip will have more mega pixels but be less sensitive. That's why it is a difficult dance between sharpness and sensitivity. There are other factors but this is the primary one (I think)...
 
I'm pretty sure the Varicam will still produce an overall much better image than the HVX. 2/3" CCDs make a huge difference, especially in noise and dynamic range. Plus, the lens is four times the cost of an HVX. That has to count for a lot.

That said, I think the HVX is perfect for the indie filmmaker. Don't compare it to a Varicam. Think of it as a DVX on super-steroids that can shoot a frame that is FOUR TIMES LARGER and has DOUBLE THE COLOR SPACE, plus is NATIVE WIDESCREEN.

Think of Murderball, November, and all the other movies shot on a DVX, and then add the above attributes. The difference in picture quality would be incredible, especially when projected in a movie theater!
 
Low light capability is also affected by the lens aperture/iris, the shutter speed, and signal processing.
 
jrv3034 said:
I'm pretty sure the Varicam will still produce an overall much better image than the HVX. 2/3" CCDs make a huge difference, especially in noise and dynamic range. Plus, the lens is four times the cost of an HVX. That has to count for a lot.

That said, I think the HVX is perfect for the indie filmmaker. Don't compare it to a Varicam. Think of it as a DVX on super-steroids that can shoot a frame that is FOUR TIMES LARGER and has DOUBLE THE COLOR SPACE, plus is NATIVE WIDESCREEN.

Think of Murderball, November, and all the other movies shot on a DVX, and then add the above attributes. The difference in picture quality would be incredible, especially when projected in a movie theater!
Click to expand...
2/3" CCD @ 720p will it be (so) better than 1/3" CCD @ 1080p with a 35mm still lenses adapter like Guerilla35 (the best in my opinion), for example?
For movie theatre, sure!
 
There is no way of knowing until the cam is released and we see some real world footage.
That said, no matter what lens you put on the HVX with an adapter you are still sending light (and your image) through the built in lens. There is no getting around that.

Also, do you really think Panasonic is going to release a 6K camera that can match it's top model in terms of image quality?

They record to the same format, but I would guess that is where the similarities end.
The same could be said of the XL2 and the ZR80, both made by the same company...both record to DV....
 
Emanuel said:
2/3" CCD @ 720p will it be (so) better than 1/3" CCD @ 1080p with a 35mm still lenses adaptor like Guerilla35 (the best in my opinion), for example?
Click to expand...
If it were just a comparison of CCDs, then the question would be valid. But the problem with this question is that there are many other things at work here. The pro lens on a Varicam is going to be vastly superior to the built-in lens on the HVX by default. If you throw a 35mm adapter on the HVX, I think it'll make the image look much softer, even in 1080 mode, than the Varicam's image.

Resolution isn't everything. When you have a camera that costs $60,000 WITHOUT a lens, by default it's going to produce a better image than a $6000 prosumer camera. Heck, I'm willing to bet that the SDX900 makes a better image than the HVX, and it isn't ANY form of HD. It's plain ol' 480 SD. But the CCDs are 2/3", and the lens is pro quality. Again, a $25,000+ camera versus $6000 is probably no-contest in terms of image quality, dynamic range, noise level, etc.

That said, few people have seen HVX footage, and even that was not the final output of the camera. We're just gonna have to wait and see.
 
Luis Caffesse said:
Also, do you really think Panasonic is going to release a 6K camera that can match it's top model in terms of image quality?
Click to expand...
Who knows? I'm with jrv3034
jrv3034 said:
Think of Murderball, November, and all the other movies shot on a DVX, and then add the above attributes. The difference in picture quality would be incredible, especially when projected in a movie theater!
Click to expand...
I add Wenders with "Land of Plenty" (I'm not sure if already release in US but here we have it already available in DVD)

About:

jrv3034 said:
Resolution isn't everything. (...)Heck, I'm willing to bet that the SDX900 makes a better image than the HVX, and it isn't ANY form of HD. It's plain ol' 480 SD. But the CCDs are 2/3", and the lens is pro quality. Again, a $25,000+ camera versus $6000 is probably no-contest in terms of image quality, dynamic range, noise level, etc.
Click to expand...
OK! Only I can't understand 'cause all the experts talk about resolution, "this and that" and they FORGET about CINE GAMMA mode(s)/setting with a lot of possibilities in terms of cinematic/film look. It's a pattern point* but as when I had the possibility of work - as director/filmmaker not cinematographer - with the F900 I could see: "the colours", for instance, that's the Cinealta difference. And will it be the case of HVX? I can't see this in the videoish look - UGLY even though useful for some purposes, at least, in my opinion - in the interlaced SD world (of course, it's not the same "thing" with the DVX).

Other example is the work on DOF and that's why (for you - and it is - the 2/3" CCD issue) I think that is crucial the question of the 35mm still lenses adapters, including movie theater release, film-out or future/present digital projection. These are THE true revolution too!

* The disadvantage (my POV) of the reel-stream andromeda "thing".

<PS> Argentino amigo, I prefer :) your "Creative Cow" avatar - I think - you are with a better loooking... :laugh:
 
Luis Caffesse said:
Also, do you really think Panasonic is going to release a 6K camera that can match it's top model in terms of image quality?
Click to expand...
If they could? Heck yes they would. Every manufacturer does, as soon as they can.

Let's look at cars for an analogy, shall we? (I hear the groans already...) A 2005 Honda Civic is a better car in every way than a 1998 Honda Accord was. They didn't hold anything back, they made 'em as good as they could.

What keeps getting left out of the equation (about "protecting" the higher-end models) is that they'll improve the higher-end models too! A 2005 Accord is a better car in every way than the 2005 Civic, of course. They improved the Accord, to keep it competitive. But they certainly didn't say "well, we'll never change the Accord, so we can only make the Civic be "so" good... that's madness.

There's a VariCam II coming. I expect it to be substantially better than the VariCam I, offering both 1080p and 720p, as well as 1080i, and also P2 recording, and I also expect it'll be substantially less expensive than the VariCam I was, and I also expect it'll have at least one other surprise in store (such as HD-D5 or H.264 recording). So who cares if the HVX outperforms the original VariCam? Certainly not Panasonic, because they'll soon have a VariCam II on the market (and yes, of course the VariCam II will substantially outperform the HVX).

Now, that's not to say that I think the HVX would outperform the original VariCam, I think the whole notion is fantasy. But if they could? If it was possible? I say undoubtedly they would make it do so. They would hold nothing back.
 
Technology, just like time, tends to only march forward.

Frankly, if the HVX comes even fairly close to the original VariCam, I would be more than ecstatic!

Tick.
Tick..
Tick...
 
yeah.. money is money. why not sell 10,000 carrot sticks for $6,000 even if they take away revenue from your 10 $60,000 apple sales a year. ..thats just stupid. if you can sel a bundle of low cost cameras because they are good, then theres no reason why not to.
 
Barry_Green said:
If they could? Heck yes they would. Every manufacturer does, as soon as they can.
...
Now, that's not to say that I think the HVX would outperform the original VariCam, I think the whole notion is fantasy. But if they could? If it was possible? I say undoubtedly they would make it do so. They would hold nothing back.
Click to expand...

Fair enough.... I suppose Barry's right.
My point was only that the HVX is probably not going to perform equal to the original VariCam (but time will tell). But I probably overspoke the point.



Emanuel: Esa foto fue de mi casamiento :) Me parece que soy el unico que esta unsando un esmoquin en su foto.
 
There is some hope (resolution wise) for the new lens... remember that high end lenses are produced in limited numbers, and are generally considered as stand-alone sales. The one advantage of a non-interchangeable lens is that it is produced in exactly the same number of units as the camera. That makes it easier for the R&D people to anticipate sales and figure development and production costs into the total # of units sold - therefore it should be, if the lens on the DVX is any indication, a pretty good lens.

Most pros use ProMist or SoftFX filters with HD anyway, to take the edge off, so when used properly with filters the two cameras should cut together well. Maybe not for a 2 camera dialogue, but if you shoot a long shot with the varicam and cut to a car interior with the HVX, they should match prtetty well. I hope, we'' all see soon...
 
The amount of speculation over the character of the HVX has to be making Panasonic very happy. Does any realize how much they would have to have spent on advertising to gain the same anticipation level as has been created by forums such as here?

My hat is off to Jan and the others involved in the marketing of this camera, they all deserve a large bonus for what they have accomplished without ever shipping product number 1.

Simply amazing!
 
khmuse said:
My hat is off to Jan and the others involved in the marketing of this camera, they all deserve a large bonus for what they have accomplished without ever shipping product number 1.

Simply amazing!
Click to expand...
I agree, it is a wonderful world of marketing and hyping this product for one year, getting people to pre-order it, while nobody have seen real life shots made with this camcorder. Not only Jan, but I think also Barry Green deserves a bonus for all his 10.000 messages promoting the Panasonic thing. Well done! :beer:
 
IMHO, comparing these two cameras is a fruitless excercise. All thing being equal, the Varicam is vastly superior to the HVX, just as, using Barry's car analogy, a Ferrari is vastly superior to the Hond Accord. However, all things are not equal, especially price. The Ferrari and the Honda will get you from point A to Point B. I've always thought of the question as, not what a camera can do, but what I can do with the camera.

I think the HVX will have enough inherent quality that a creative, skilled person will be able to produce some amazing images with it.
 
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