HVX or A1?

evilken said:
Hi Kholi,

OK, point taken, but this is a user group devoted to the DVX/HVX. I shouldn't get SUCH a hard time for being pro-panny. And more so, I was critical of our beloved HVX - referring to the high price, and limited recording times available on P2. I'm currently working on a documentary, and the aformentioned achilles heel is causing me lots of trouble. I don't think I'm the only one who thinks the whole P2 fiasco has been a major headache, but we are early adopters. Tapeless workflow is the future, it just hasn't been handled very well thus far.

All the posts on this site - or any other - are subjective. This is the strength of user forums - you get to hear someone else's opinion, and you can take it or leave it. I come from a film background, and this influences the way I look at video cameras, hence the comparison made in my post. But I do think my point stands: the A1 is not intended to compete with the HVX. Perhaps the G1 is, but not the A1, and as a reminder, this thread is titled "HVX or A1".
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You're right, it's HVX OR A1.. not HVX VERSUS A1.... sorry dude.

And it's okay that the site is pro-panny, but mos tof the users have come to a point where they offer objective opinions. Not just one is better than the other.

Green will point out any day that at this price-point, they all can get the job more-than-done. It comes down to the workflow that you choose.

I'm all for tapeless. I've been fondling my HVX200 for hours. I am STILL on the fence about the image, though. For me? The HVX200's image is really stodgy, falling short in the resolution and cleanliness areas where as the A1's image has the resolution and is a clean image. Now, Barry says the noise is about the same. Me? I'm seeing a world of difference between the two. Even in the lowlight comparison footage between the HVX200 and A1.

Just have to chill on the which-is-better. Elton and I weren't giving anyone trouble, we're just informing that there are tapeless options, etc., for the A1 as well.

Edit here-- As far as compeittion for the HVX? Okay.. it wasn't "meant" to compete. But uh... when the image is as good as the HVX and/or more pleasing to some people, and the price is better...

Sorry, but they are competing for the money of people like I and the person who started this thread. So yeah, it is "competition" when it comes down to the sales.
 
My advice ( I think I did this on another similar thread?) on this matter:

Comparing the A1 vs the HVX, I might assume it'll be very similar to the XL h1 vs the HVX, so, what I have to say is this:

Good points of the A1

1-With the A1, you're getting a cleaner image (less noise) than the HVX. However, that's just marginaly, and its not going to affect anyone's viewing pleasure. "Noise" in the HVX adds texture to the picture, in my subjective point of view. You might argue that you would prefer to add this in post. Untill today, since I mainly use the HVX for Progressive scan shooting (not 60p, tough), this hasn't been an issue, and my clients are quite happy with the results.

The A1 has an archiving solution off the shelf, and that's mini-dv or HDV tapes. Those are cheap, compared to the reliable HVX archiving solutions. Since the a1 mpeg is very compressed, you can archive more footage per gygabyte, vs the HVX that needs about a gygabyte per minute in maximum quality

Better resolution-, but, again, just marginally. Having seen HVX and H1 in a big projection screen, I believe that, if your intent is film output, the results in sharpness are not noticeable to the audience.

Here are the good points of the HVX

Better Colors

Panasonic went with the same gamble they did with the Varicam on the HVX. They knew the competitors would come with better resolution, so where did they improve? Color rendition. The HVX is 4:2:2 vs the HDV 4:2:0. What does this mean. Coming from Pal land, HDV's 4:2:0 is similar to DV's 4:2:0, nad what happens when I see HDV footage, regardless of the camera, is "DV in HD". You can Color Correct, do telecine, etc on the footage, but you're talking thousands of Post dollars in order to get a picture similar to what you get in the HVX. I'm in post on a racing project shot with the HVX. I have a shot that's overexposed, and I tought it was ruined. Guess what? The detail is still there in the overexposed areas, and I got an Excelent picture with simple brightness and contrast adjustment (and small cc). This wouldn't be possible in HDV, I assure you.

Variable frame rates

This is important, at least for me. I'm shooting a short in the upcoming months, and I'll be doing some slow motion shots. Have you seen "In The Mood For Love", from Wong Kar Wai? You can get those marvelous smooth slow motion shots with the HVX. Or You can do a small speed up of fighting or chasing sequences with a slower frame rate- for your Kung-Fu or Car Chases (Just don't overdo it)

True Progressive Scan- I "always" shoot 25P. But in the very, very rare event situation I have to shoot, I still have the option of shooting either 50p or 1080 50i.

EDIT- Better Dinamic Range- The cine-like D setting on the HVX gives a fantastic dinamic range for the HVX. Having seen the Canon XL-H1, I never saw footage with the same dinamic range has the HVX.

And it has the same overall feel to the DVX- I had already done Half of the learning curve when I purchased the camera. It feels great, has independent zoom and focus, being the zoom a lot more usable manually than on the DVX.

P2

Small recording times. Yes, that's a disadvantage. Of course I would love to be the one to decide when to stop recording, and not the media. But there is a major advantage. Time saving. Here's an example: i was covering an event and I needed to have a piece edited at the end of the day to show at a media event. This was absolutely crazy. Since the final output was trough projection and not broadcast, I decided to go DV to P2. I have two 8gb cards and a P2 store. Started shooting at 9 AM, and finished at 3 PM. I brought my powerbook with me, and copied the card contents to my external FW 800 drive. Then I immediately started editing. Finished at 6:30 PM. Press event was at 7pm. The clip ended great, with interviews, music, dinamic editing and story. It looked like the amazing race. (The concept of the event was similar, and I edited and shot it with that show in mind). Suffice to say, I don't want to do this again, but i got praise for it, a decent pay, and my media friends couldn't believe that a quality product like that ( The media video went for about 13 minutes- thats too long for a media event, but no one got bored and everyone was clapping in the end) was achieved in 3 hours of editing. This, of course, would never happen with HDV tape, or any other tape, since you would spend those 3 hours capturing footage.

As you can see, I love my HVX. But the A1 is also an excelent camera : its sharp, is tuneable in colors (A lesson Canon learned from Panasonic), has 25F (but the resolution will drop to HVX level), and its cheap and is great for archiving. Would I prefer the A1 to my HVX? Heck no: Better Dinamic Range, better color depth, rendition, True progressive, p2, and excelent manual control. Now just firmware update the thing, Panasonic, with a FLIP option on the LCD!
 
It is absolutely that the HVX is a nice cam with a lot to offer like 4ch audio uncompressed, easy low power editing, variable framerates etc.

Now, many people with HVX are shooting on FS100 harddisk, it brings more weight but you can edit directly after the shoot. You can do the same with the A1, using the firewire connection and the Firestore. Shoot in QT HDV format and edit instantly even without the conversion. (and shoot on tape at the same time for the shelf).

In resolution the A1 is capable doing good, and for the price? I think that for many people the all in price for the HVX (with 3x P2 card and P2 cardreader and the backup line) is too much. They can't stepp in, but can affort the A1. The looks are better anyway.:huh:

The HVX is a more professional cam (not for the image itself) but you need to work in a P2 surrounding.
 
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i love my hvx but I hate that it takes so long to transfer data from the p2 store. up to 40 min. per partition!! so if i have a fully loaded p2 store it takes hours for the whole job!!! Not to mention that the p2 store hates transfering data to hard drive on a moving tour bus... or even a non-moving tour bus for that matter (if someone slams a bay door or front door all sorts of bad things happen) can somebody explain why sometimes a partition on the p2 store will transfer in 7 mins and other partitions take 40 mins?!! it's very frustrating and painfully sloooowww.... and don't tell me to use the p2 genie, (4 of my folders partially transferred and I got nothing but errors) Trust me I'm no newbie, i know what i'm doing, it's just frustrating with the varying p2 store transfer times...
 
pkendall said:
i love my hvx but I hate that it takes so long to transfer data from the p2 store. up to 40 min. per partition!! so if i have a fully loaded p2 store it takes hours for the whole job!!!
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That's completely abnormal. The P2 Store should be taking about 3 minutes per 4GB partition, not 40. Something's not configured right with your system.


Not to mention that the p2 store hates transfering data to hard drive on a moving tour bus... or even a non-moving tour bus for that matter (if someone slams a bay door or front door all sorts of bad things happen)
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You can turn off the motion detection system and it'll then be able to transfer footage on a moving bus. But by doing so you're potentially compromising the reliability of the transfer.

can somebody explain why sometimes a partition on the p2 store will transfer in 7 mins and other partitions take 40 mins?!! it's very frustrating and painfully sloooowww....
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I don't know what's wrong with your configuration, but I can assure you something's wrong because those transfer times are completely abnormal.
 
pkendall said:
i love my hvx but I hate that it takes so long to transfer data from the p2 store. up to 40 min. per partition!!
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Make sure you aren't using a USB 1.1 port, or a USB 2.0 port that's running at USB 1.1 speeds because it's connected to a USB hub that has low-speed USB devices like a keyboard, mouse etc. connected to it.
 
It seems like the A1 is the viable competitor to the HVX200 that the XLH1 couldn't quite be. While the XLH1 had the advantage of interchanible lenses and SDI out, many users weren't likely to make use of these features and thus couldn't really justify the 9k price tag.

The A1 is very competativly priced. It may well be the best price for the money out of these smaller HD cams.

I think now the question becomes what really matters to you. Is color rendition more important to you or is resolution gain? Do you want to go tapeless or are you willing to steal deal with the hassles of tape and HDV? Is the slight lattitude advantage of the HVX200 important to you (for me YES). Is 4:2:2 important to you? Is the cost of P2 and current slow record times a big issue? Is having a 20x soom over a 13x one important to you? Is flexibility important (720p is nice and still often used). Are variable frame rates important to you? HOw big a deal is audio compression? How big a deal is 60i (in which case you'll get a signifigantly sharper image out of the A1)? It all comes down to what you want to do and your budget.

Right now, I don't deliver any of my work in HD (won't invest untill we know whether Blu-Ray or HD-DVD prevails) and I don't work in 60i so the resolution gains of the A1 aren't at all noticible. On the other hand, the variable frame rates, better colors, nicer codec, and other HVX200 features are pretty nice. On the other hand, if I decide to do a feature and I won't a little more resolution for my wide shots, I may consider renting or buying an A1 to work with my HVX200. Untill then, I'll save my cash.
 
Kholi said:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=77259&page=13

Fair user reviews from Barry_Green. Please, read.

Part of that should put to rest a lot of things. Especially this Color Rendition stuff. The A1 can be tweaked to match the HVX. It isnt' an out-of-the-box camera.
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Very well. Show me some A1 footage that can compare to the footage the Motivity picture guys are coming up in the DVinfo.net forums. Here's a link to some of their footage:

http://motivitypictures.com/hvx200/m..._snow_day.html

http://motivitypictures.com/embracing_HD/

http://www.motivitypictures.com/hvx2...reen_test.html


Now with m2

http://motivitypictures.com/m2footage/


If you can come up with something of this quality (Without thousands of dollars in post) than I agree with you. I haven't seen anything close to this in HDV. And I would post my Macau Night footage as a link, but no one is hosting it anymore. I haven't seen any HDV camera capable of these results in therms of color, even after CC.

EDIT- I Don't want to start a camera war here. Just saying that there's a definitive advantage in color from the HVX VS the Canon H1. Now if the A1 is any different than the H1, I sincerely do not know. I'm just judging from the fact it has the same internal organs as the XL-h1. Once again, I really do think that the A1 should be an excelent camera. Great price point with good feature set. If I was to buy an HDV camera, it would sure be the Canon A1. But its not an HVX. The only comparable option would be the XL-h1 with HD-SDI out capture. But that's not practical.

For Event coverage, marriage videos and corporate stuff, the A1 with its long form recording is probably a better option than the HVX. But for narrative, Comercial and Independent film production, I believe the HVX has the edge, for the Budget filmmaker, that is. If you have the capability of having either a G1 and an XL-h1 with HD-sdi out capture during filming, that might be better. But that wouldn't be that "budget", would it?
 
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I'm not here to change your mind. It's obvious that it's already made up. Regardless of what you're saying, until the camera sees more professional application and you put your hands on it to verify that it CAN NOT RENDER COLORS AS GOOD AS THE HVX ... you shouldn't go around stating what you think is fact.


http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?p=778140#post778140

It could be subjective, but that looks like accurate color-rendition to me....

It's not over-saturated, super-colorful, or there's obviously no thousands of dollars used in post-processing methods. That green looks like Cactus green. His skin tone looks like skin tone to me, not ultra-pink. The sky looks crisp and blue, and the rocks look rich and brown.

I'm asking him to post larger stills and even some uncorrected stills, straight from camera.
 
Kholi said:
I'm not here to change your mind. It's obvious that it's already made up. Regardless of what you're saying, until the camera sees more professional application and you put your hands on it to verify that it CAN NOT RENDER COLORS AS GOOD AS THE HVX ... you shouldn't go around stating what you think is fact.


http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?p=778140#post778140

It could be subjective, but that looks like accurate color-rendition to me....

It's not over-saturated, super-colorful, or there's obviously no thousands of dollars used in post-processing methods. That green looks like Cactus green. His skin tone looks like skin tone to me, not ultra-pink. The sky looks crisp and blue, and the rocks look rich and brown.

I'm asking him to post larger stills and even some uncorrected stills, straight from camera.
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Well, you're right. I should only judge if I really see an A1 personally and play with it. I just haven't seen any XL-h1 footage close to what the motivity picture guys are getting with the HVX. And since I have been very happy with the HVX, as well as others over here (A professional production and Post House in Hong-Kong, called "Post-Office", used to f900 and Film to telecine works, purchased an HVX vs the HDV cameras to complement f900, Varicam and FIlm shoots), I'm very skeptical about the wonders of the A1. But I'm ranting, and giving a biased opinion, since I haven't worked with one personally.

It all ends up to what David Beyers said. It's a matter of compromises. One thing is for sure, Even with a Sony a1, one can get much better results for Film out than any Prosumer Mini-DV camera... (I couldn't see the link you posted- maybe it requires flash, and this computer i'm writting on doesn't have flash in it. )

I would really love to see those stills. If the motivity guys could just use the A1 and give their opinion...
 
SPZ said:
Well, you're right. I should only judge if I really see an A1 personally and play with it. I just haven't seen any XL-h1 footage close to what the motivity picture guys are getting with the HVX. And since I have been very happy with the HVX, as well as others over here (A professional production and Post House in Hong-Kong, called "Post-Office", used to f900 and Film to telecine works, purchased an HVX vs the HDV cameras to complement f900, Varicam and FIlm shoots), I'm very skeptical about the wonders of the A1. But I'm ranting, and giving a biased opinion, since I haven't worked with one personally.

It all ends up to what David Beyers said. It's a matter of compromises. One thing is for sure, Even with a Sony a1, one can get much better results for Film out than any Prosumer Mini-DV camera... (I couldn't see the link you posted- maybe it requires flash, and this computer i'm writting on doesn't have flash in it. )

I would really love to see those stills. If the motivity guys could just use the A1 and give their opinion...
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It's totally normal to go for what you know. Takes practice to be objective toward other things. Trust me, there's no mini-dv cam, to me, that can stack up to the DVX100/a/b. XL2? No... but it can look good when used to the best of it's abilities.

It really comes down to workflow. If A1 had p2, there's no doubt where my money would be. I'm only having trouble deciding on whether or not to keep the HVX200 that I have based on the workflow alone, dude.

I'm going to do a short with it for drama fest just to kick something out for myself on a really small-scale. A weekend shoot.

If I don't like the results, I'm selling it and getting an A1. One thing I'm not really feeling about the A1 (Aside from the taped workflow, of course-- p2 is marvelous. Did I mention that already?) is the vertical smear. I wouldn't point this camera at a stop-light. It's very unpretty.

Other than that, it's really clean, dude. Just another option for those who can't/don't want to go HVX200.

DVXuser is DVXuser/HVXuser, but with the induction of other camera manufacturers kicking out great cameras like the A1, it sees expansion to encompass more. Even in the "Other Camera's" forum.

Gotta play nice, y0.
 
But is the A1, picture wise, any different than the XL-H1? Are people getting better results? or is it the same camera with a fixed lens?

I really like the way Panasonic "interprets"the world. It looks different from Sony, as well as Canon looks different from Sony and Panasonic. Dinamic range on the HVX is similar to the DVX. From what I saw from the Canon XL-H1, their interpretation in HD is very similar to what you get on the XL2. While tweakable, its still 4:2:0, and it still looks like HD DV. Panasonic imagery, on the HVX, looks more organic and natural. The picture just looks more "full", if you understand what I mean. I would love to show you some footage I shot, but, once again, I can't host it. It just looks incredible.

EDIT- Shooting a short in a couple of months. Its a drama. It will be too late for Drama fest, since I'm shooting in February. But i will share it with you guys once completed. I just can't get a better resolution file of my Macau Grand Prix Commercial, broadcasted on Discovery Channel, Hong-Kong TVB and ATV. Its a shame, since it looks fantastic (not motivity fantastic, but up there with average commercials, I believe).
 
SPZ said:
But is the A1, picture wise, any different than the XL-H1? Are people getting better results? or is it the same camera with a fixed lens?

I really like the way Panasonic "interprets"the world. It looks different from Sony, as well as Canon looks different from Sony and Panasonic. Dinamic range on the HVX is similar to the DVX. From what I saw from the Canon XL-H1, their interpretation in HD is very similar to what you get on the XL2. While tweakable, its still 4:2:0, and it still looks like HD DV. Panasonic imagery, on the HVX, looks more organic and natural. The picture just looks more "full", if you understand what I mean. I would love to show you some footage I shot, but, once again, I can't host it. It just looks incredible.
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Totally understand. For some reason? I'm seeing a better image from the A1. It's probably really subjective, though. I think Elton is saying that the H1/A1 image is the same pretty much, and with a Fixed lens.

Everyone's gonna go round-and-round about the colors from either camera. To me? I think the A1 looks a lot more "HD" than the HVX. I can't say why, man. It just looks that way to me.

But enough of that-- beating a crazy-dead horse. Just don't want people to gang up on the A1 before checking it all out and then making a decision on what they think. Like I said, I'm going to do a short of my own with the HVX200 and if I don't like the image results, I'll be going to the A1+Firestore+35mm Adapter.
 
SPZ said:
I really like the way Panasonic "interprets"the world. It looks different from Sony, as well as Canon looks different from Sony and Panasonic.
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On this there is absolute truth. The HVX picture just looks and feels wonderfully rich. I did some split-screens of what I've been shooting on the XHA1 and the HVX, and the A1 looks great, but the HVX makes the jaw drop and bounce a couple of times. I did some shots to boost up the color on the A1 to get closer to the HVX, but then I boosted the HVX color too and it pulled way ahead... I still have to sort through all this. I hope I can get a chance to try to paint them to look equivalent. But right now it's like film stocks, to me the HVX looks like 5245 or even 5285, and the XHA1 looks like Expression 500T. Different. Both good, but different.

It reminds me of Mike Curtis' statement on the Texas Shootout. He said that when you looked at all the monitors, side by side, the one he kept coming back to was the HVX -- he just liked how it looked better. I'm finding the same thing here; the XHA1 footage is great and sharp and crisp and nice and clear and whatnot, but if John Hudson was here you'd hear him use the term "mojo" to describe the difference.

Of all the HDV offerings on the market today, hands down I think the XHA1 is the best buy (at least until I get to work with a Sony V1). But I think the HVX picture just looks better (and, hey, it should, since it's a more expensive camera).

Dinamic range on the HVX is similar to the DVX. From what I saw from the Canon XL-H1, their interpretation in HD is very similar to what you get on the XL2.
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To me this is completely true. The HVX is a high-def DVX, the XHA1 is a high-def XL2. If someone preferred the look of the XL2 over the DVX, they'll probably prefer the look of the XHA1 over the HVX. If someone preferred the look of the DVX over the XL2, they'll prefer the HVX over the XHA1. They both make amazing pictures however.

I'll be posting an article with the footage. On a split-screen it's obvious that there's a difference, and it's obvious to me which one I prefer (just as it will probably be obvious to XL2 aficionados as to which one they'd prefer). But if you don't split-screen it, if you just look at a frame and don't know which camera it's from, you'll probably find that you like them both very much.
 
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Barry_Green said:
On this there is absolute truth. The HVX picture just looks and feels wonderfully rich. I did some split-screens of what I've been shooting on the XHA1 and the HVX, and the A1 looks great, but the HVX makes the jaw drop and bounce a couple of times.
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It is precisely for this reason that I'm bending over backwards to get into the HVX. The 100a & its look was a life-changing experience for me. I saw some A1 footage, and it is nice, just different. It's pointelss to try & quantify the difference - each image just has an inherent quality and texture. I respect the A1 look, but I love the HVX look, so much so that I've pretty much decided to go with a firestore on a belt clip and try & make a dvmultirig pro setup work for my handheld needs.
 
That's the way I'd like to see it handled. Respect that each delivers a quality look, just a different look. Some will prefer one over the other, and that's a good reason as to why there are two different products on the market. But they both can deliver amazing imagery that we would have killed for just two years ago!
 
If i spent more time shooting and less time reading I would managed to shoot beutiful with my PC1e...

28 days later was shoot with a worse cam than any of the new sub10000. And it still will be a better film than anything i have shoot to this day.

Of course if you gonna buy a cam, buy the right from start. But most customers will not notice the difference between H1, HVX, V1. They will just say great picture sorry about the lens cap.

My wife cant even se the difference between a 1080P imax movie compared to a uppconverted 720P DVX100 movie I shoot. And that doesnt mean im good.

Myself there is 3 things I check first of all when looking for a cam.

Progressive
No washed out colors.
Gamma
 
Barry_Green said:
the XHA1 footage is great and sharp and crisp and nice and clear and whatnot, but if John Hudson was here you'd hear him use the term "mojo" to describe the difference.
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What is the biggest nonsense in the industry that "Hudsons mojo" thing. Even if you repeat it 14.000 times. Mojo is shooting on film and going through the experience that only after processing -mostly weeks later- you can see the material the first time. That's a real mojo 'shiver'.

Today with P2, the mojo is gone, you can instantly see, review, retake and edit the material. The biggest change in shooting film is shooting P2 or alike in that matter.

The rich tone, the color dimension and rendition in the HVX material (if you turn everything to: best) is the result of its inside guts and outside believe. And I-frame only, 4:2:2, uncompressed audio, zebra and peaking together etc.

If the HVX shaves off some weight, places a better viewfinder and LCD, showing some new possibilities, it is not only the most expensive but it remains in the longer term the champ.

It is however a miracle to see a HDV cam like the A1, can deliver the A1 look.
:kiss:
 
You'll see what I'm talking about when I post the pictures. I shot the HVX at neutral settings, and the XHA1 at neutral settings. Both on cinelike-D, both at middle sharpness and on matrix 2/cinematrix, both exposing for exactly the same exposure based on 100 IRE, both with neutral color and neutral blacks (not stretched or pressed). And the HVX image just pops, and the XHA1 image doesn't. They have all the same sharpness and detail and motion rendition, but -- there's just some magical "mojo" happening on the HVX stills. Not night and day, but -- it's there.

Then I tried to tweak the Canon to deliver a more HVX-like look, and it can take steps toward it but I didn't spend hours trying to dial it in exactly, I just mainly boosted the color gain all the way to 50 and played around with pedestal/black stretch etc. Then, for grins, I took the HVX up to color level +7 and split-screened 'em again. The Canon can't do what the HVX can, when it comes to color and texture. You could probably get there in post, but not in-camera.

Don't get me wrong, it's a fantastic little cam, and if you weren't looking at shots side-by-side you probably wouldn't know which one you were looking at. But if you do split-screen 'em you can see the "mojo" at work. Some may like it, some may prefer the flatter look. I'm an in-camera type of guy, I don't "do" post, so I like the look I can deliver in-camera better. But, like I say, you'll see when I get the photos posted.

It is however a miracle to see a HDV cam like the A1, can deliver the A1 look.
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Yes, the XHA1 is easily the champ of HDV cams now, I definitely prefer it over the JVC and the Sony FX1/Z1, and at its price point it's hard to justify spending the extra coin for an XLH1.
 
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