HPX300 - comparing right?

C

casino83

Member
Hi guys,

I wonder if all the comparison is right here? I assume most of the potentional new owner has/had cheaper prosumer cameras. Sometimes it seems like the "real pros" here compare this camera with more expensive ones...

Anyway - I'm really considering buying the HPX301E (european version, I assume same as 300). After reading most threads about the cam, I still have a few questions.

First: Until now I've been using a Canon XHA1 (HDV-3CCD). Quite pleased, but want a better cam. That said - that's what I want to compare to...

1. There is a lot of talking about noise/gain... How would you guys compare the noise between XHA1 and 301E? (The XHA1 is not known as a good low-light-performer).

2. Turning of the DRS and setting gain to -3db. Will this mean NO GAIN at all?

3. Doing the above - would you say that 301E will deliver a better low light capture than my XHA1 - all with lower noise/gain?

4. Okay... skewing then. Since I'm used to3CCD, I'm a bit afraid of this. But, I think that I might be able to avoid putting me in "skewing situations".

5. Yes... another possible camera is the Sony EX3. I like the fact that it has a bigger sensor. But the question is: HAS 301E BIGGER SKEWING PROBLEM than the EX3?

6. Finally... Does the 4:2:2 work on capture to P2?

7. Oh, one more... Has the 301E the possibility the flip the LCD/viewfinder? (For use with a 35mm-adapter)?

Very thankful for any help!
 
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I've had the camera for about four months now and I'll try and answer some of your questions.
1- A lot of the talk was about the camera's noisy pictures in 1080 and that was largely fixed by a recent firmware update. It is still slightly noisier than 2/3 inch HD cameras but I have found in -3db it is clean. Unlike the older 2/3 inch SD cams - digi beta etc, this camera is not very usable past 6 db, 6db is to me similar to 18db on my old 2/3 inch SD camera.

I'll let others answer 2-4 but re question 5 and skew. I've shot sports drama and documentaries with the 302 and skew has only been an issue once, however I was shooting out of a vehicle and tracking with cyclists who were racing at high speeds and the electricity poles in the foreground were bending. It was only really noticable when the shot was freeze framed though.
For the rest of my shooting skew is a non issue.

6- Yes the 300/302 shoots 4:2:2 to the p2 card. That's one of the main reasons I went for Panasonic over sony, I've shot DVCAM for years and I wanted to move away from 4:2:0/4:1:1 colourspace so I could actually achieve a good chromakey, plus the colours are so much fuller and deeper looking.

7- yes it can flip the image for use with 35 mm adapters.

Hope that helps, it's a tough call to decide which camera to buy but the 302 continues to impress me.
 
Thanks

Thanks

Thanks Ryaninoz,

I then assume that you are quite happy with the Panny?
Great to hear! What about the editing? Is the workflow smooth? No transcoding or conversion needed before editing?

I'm using Vista 64bit and Premiere CS4... I've seen somewhere problems with Vista 64bit (or was that just about the new P2 cards?).

About the P2 cards - are there any cheaper, good working cards (E) out there?

Still I'd like someone to compare the noise/gain with XHA1 or other prosumer camera :)
 
casino83 said:
2. Turning of the DRS and setting gain to -3db. Will this mean NO GAIN at all?
Click to expand...
It means negative gain, which means lower noise than at no gain. There is a default value in the sensor at which they get the maximum performance with the desired/minimum noise level, or, put another way, the best tradeoff between dynamic range and noise. That level is "fixed" in the sensor at 0dB. Then you can gain it up or down from there; down makes it even cleaner, but gives up a little dynamic range, up makes it brighter but noisier. Whatever the camera's "base" noise level is, -3dB will make it cleaner.

3. Doing the above - would you say that 301E will deliver a better low light capture than my XHA1 - all with lower noise/gain?
Click to expand...
In terms of sensitivity, no -- its base sensitivity is the same as the XHA1, so if you go to -3dB it'll be half a stop less sensitive. But the noise level will be lower. You'd have to try it side-by-side with an XHA1 to know for sure.

5. Yes... another possible camera is the Sony EX3. I like the fact that it has a bigger sensor. But the question is: HAS 301E BIGGER SKEWING PROBLEM than the EX3?
Click to expand...
Depends on what mode you shoot in. If you shoot in 1080/24 or 25, yes there's more skew in the 301E. But if you shoot in any other mode (1080/60i or 50i, 720/24 or 25, 720/60p or 50p) then there's quite a bit less skew than the EX3.

6. Finally... Does the 4:2:2 work on capture to P2?
Click to expand...
Of course. In DVCPRO50, DVCPRO-HD, and AVC-Intra 100 modes, it's always 4:2:2.

7. Oh, one more... Has the 301E the possibility the flip the LCD/viewfinder? (For use with a 35mm-adapter)?
Click to expand...
It does better than that -- it flips the recording. So you use the "scan reverse" function and it will monitor and record the footage right-side-up.
 
Thanks again,

Thanks again,

This time to Barry (who should get paid at this forum).

To bad that the 300 seems to be less sensitive than my XHA1. Of course I was hoping to have greater possibilities in low light shooting.

I suppose that 720P would be enought when shooting scenes where skewing might appear.

What about skewing in 1080P when there is no zoom at all? Will there still be a lot of skewing at pans?

Another question by the way... I shoot quite a lot at concerts and nightclubs. How would the 300:s rolling shutter respond to moving lights?

Does anyone have any video clips from concerts?
 
The 300 is the same sensitivity, at 0dB gain, and probably cleaner in noise than the XHA1. At -3dB it would be less sensitive, and unquestionably cleaner in noise.

Zoom has a huge influence on the perception of skewing. At wide angles you really won't notice much if any. It's when you're zoomed in that it becomes noticeable, and when fully zoomed in it can become problematic. So the amount of zoom is directly related to the amount of skew.

And concerts can be problematical for rolling shutters; flashes are the real issue. The HPX300 has "flash band compensation" to hide the effects of flashes, but if there's lots of strobing and flashing lights you're going to want to test it out first before committing, just to make sure of how it performs in the scenario you plan on putting it in.
 
casino83 said:
I'm using Vista 64bit and Premiere CS4... I've seen somewhere problems with Vista 64bit (or was that just about the new P2 cards?).
Click to expand...

CS4 does not work with the AVC-Intra codec, without a $500 Main Concept add-on. I use CS4, but I don't want to spend ANOTHER $500, so I have not used AVC-Intra myself - I have, however, shot AVC-Intra for other companies, and give them a hard drive they use with Edius.
 
There's no way I'd want a PDW330L over the Panny 300, sure the 330 has 1/2 inch chips but in standard def it's only DVCAM which is no where near DVCPRO50 in terms of quality and in HD it's 4:2:0 XDCAM HD which again doesn't come close to AVC INTRA or even DVCPRO HD which is 100 mb. Also the sensor on the 330 isn't 1920x1080 as the one on the 300 is.
 
casino83 said:
4. Okay... skewing then. Since I'm used to3CCD, I'm a bit afraid of this. But, I think that I might be able to avoid putting me in "skewing situations".
Click to expand...


I've been using the camera for almost 2 months, and I'm very disappointed with the skewing. I was shooting one of the health care protests from across a traffic circle (~3-4 lanes). I zoomed to a full shot and I was locked down on a tripod.

She shook the sign back and fourth several times moving it about 4-6". The top looked ok, but the poster board sign looked like Jello. I was thoroughly disgusted with the performance.

Another time I was shoulder mounted standing on a ledge following a cop (~8ft away, zoomed roughly 50% as I recall) walking through a crowd. A sign moved into the frame, so I panned over to another cop about 60-degrees behind him who was also about 8-10ft from me. Granted the movement was somewhat fast. It warped the frame, and I felt it was a reasonable shot.

I'm certainly more sensitive, knowing what to look for, but I think it's going to be somewhat disorienting and distracting to viewers.

Shooting concerts and nightclubs, it's something to definitely think about.
 
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davideo.net said:
CS4 does not work with the AVC-Intra codec, without a $500 Main Concept add-on. I use CS4, but I don't want to spend ANOTHER $500, so I have not used AVC-Intra myself - I have, however, shot AVC-Intra for other companies, and give them a hard drive they use with Edius.
Click to expand...
AVC-Intra is supposed to be a free upgrade to CS4 in the next upgrade, isn't it? That's what I understood anyway...
 
Yes...

Yes...

Barry_Green said:
AVC-Intra is supposed to be a free upgrade to CS4 in the next upgrade, isn't it? That's what I understood anyway...
Click to expand...

I can confirm that Premiere CS4 will support AVC-Intra in the next free upgrade. On the other hand, After Effects will support it on the next generation.
 
Pdw f330

Pdw f330

In regard to your thoughts about a Sony F330. We used the F350 (same picture quality as F330) extensively for a year, for commercials, corporate and documentary work. You can read our review which covers a variety of work and should answer most questions you could have on this series and the codec.

http://www.studioscotland.com/SonyF350_review.htm (F350)

Clearly optical disc capture is a different animal to card capture and for some that is a deliberate professional choice. The F300 series is well capable of producing excellent results at 1440x1080 and scales up to 1920x1080 very well. The optical system and the workflow are excellent for a busy commercial studio.

The 300 series is older technology by today’s standards and much will depend on your short/mid/long term goal. As always, your choice of equipment will come down to your needs and requirements. Although, now becoming dated, you should find the review of interest, if nothing else it should help you make some informed decisions.


Best: Stu
www.studioscotland.com
 
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