HPX 170 vs HMC 150 vs ??? for documentaries

C

custerc

Well-known member
Hi all,

So, I'm working on the first stages of a long form documentary project. I have a DVX100 I've been making shorts for the web with, and I love it, but thinking about upgrading to HD if -- and that's a big if -- I can get some funding. This would be used ONLY for documentary work, and my needs may be a bit specific:

  • I want something that does 1080p and can shoot in 24p
  • I need something that's light and relatively durable. Will be shooting mostly handheld, in China; the camera is bound to take a few bumps and scrapes.
  • I do not want to deal with a ton of tapes. I will be able to dump to computer regularly, however, will want to be able to record, ideally for at least 3 hours, without stopping except to switch media. Also would prefer media that doesn't cost a %@#$%@ fortune.
  • Need something that performs at least OK in low light, as I won't have time for lighting set ups in many situations I am shooting.
  • Would prefer a camera that's similar to the DVX, or as close as possible, just because I am comfortable with that camera.
  • Would prefer something that can use the same batteries as a DVX (not sure if either of these do...)

I would prefer to spend less (more money for spare media/batteries, and other stuff), and am willing to buy used, although the fact that I live in China makes that difficult. My question is, which of these two cameras is better for this specific use? Especially on the durability front, I have no idea which of these cameras, if either, is more likely to hold up while being dragged onto buses and trains and pushed around by police, etc.

Would love thoughts, esp from owners with experience.

Edit: whoops, forgot to add, I'm not sure what format this project will eventually end up in, but I want to keep my options open vis a vis film festivals, etc. so everything would be shot in the highest possible quality on whatever camera I did get.
 
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I had the HMC 150 and although I never “abuse” my equipment [I don't baby it either] it held up well. Very well, to mostly indoor work with a little outdoor shooting in warm and dry contitions.


Price-wise the 150 should be better on upfront cost and backend media cost too.


The 170 should give you more in terms of image quality for post work but I've never worked with one so I cannot say for sure.
 
well heres a quick resposne for you
baes ob your needs,
hmc150
only problem is it uses different battery. you have to buy new ones.
but it is bottomline the best bang for the buck
cheap sd card media
it holds so much better than a dvx100.
32 gb card = 4 hrs straight

hpx170. if you can spend extra for p2 cards and the single p2 reader. go for it
 
dcloud said:
well heres a quick resposne for you
baes ob your needs,
hmc150
only problem is it uses different battery. you have to buy new ones.
but it is bottomline the best bang for the buck
cheap sd card media
it holds so much better than a dvx100.
32 gb card = 4 hrs straight

hpx170. if you can spend extra for p2 cards and the single p2 reader. go for it
Click to expand...

Would I need to pay extra for an external reader for P2, or can it export directly from the camera into FCP?
 
You're fine without it, just lock the P2 cards before transfering to Macs. The external reader is a convenience.

& if u go hpx.. spend money first on P2.
 
Custrec,

For documentary needs, both the HPX and HMC are very similar in function and very similar to the DVX also. The HPX and P2 workflow is more expensive for a similar IQ compared to the HMC, but the benefit is much higher reliability and a more robust codec. If the most reliable workflow is important, the $1000 extra for the cam + extra P2 memory cost will be a good investment.

Grant
 
I have loved my 150, and didn't see anything in the quality on large screens that would matter. I transcode everything to a 4:2:2 codec, regardless of ProRes or AVI. People have been stunned by the quality. You can see a documentary video I did on Vimeo, all HMC150. Worse things about it is that I had to shoot some of the interviews with windows behind them, I couldn't get around it, so there is bad quality on those clips. I did my best with a bad situation. I'd do it differently next time. We had no setup time, 1 hour to get the interviews and a huge amount of information to gather. So with that caveat, check out http://www.vimeo.com/12452315

The downside to the 150? Noise level. (but compared to what? My 7d also gets a bit of noise). There was noticeable hiss in some of the takes, when I used mic in. When I added a Mixpre, and switched to line in, the hiss went away. You'll notice that in the video. Also got some hiss when the batteries of the lav were weak. Buy a volt meter that reads volts in numbers rather than Good/Bad and never go into an interview with anything but fresh, 1.50 volts in the batteries. You can also then record to a Zoom or the like while recording to the 150, as backup.

The AVCHD format is a bit of a pain to work with, given that I also work with a Canon 7d. Importing is much easier on the Canon.

Your need for long takes means you are making the right choices. The 150 *seems* pretty durable, but I'm unsure of it's ability to withstand high humidity. Seems ok so far (11 months in). But it is pro sumer, not industrial grade. There's more plastic here than I'd like. My magnesium bodied 7d weighs more than the 150! It's also environmentally sealed, not sure the 150 is. I doubt it.


Good luck.
 
My vote is for the HPX 170. We've been using one for quite some time and if you are shooting a long project get the 170. What I've seen of the 150 is ok, but in my opinion the 170 is much better in the high-lights. The 150 seems to mush out in the bright spots. The 170 is very solid and will take some bouncing around. A local tv station managed to break their 150 within 2 days ( broken viewfinder). The P2 workflow is rock solid. Just follow the rules and you will have great footage and an easy editing experience. On a Mac, always lock the card before connecting the card to the Mac. The Panasonic card reader works very well and allows you to copy your files to your computer drive, while not tying up your camera.
 
I have a 150 and wish I had sprung for the 170 instead, for all the reasons above. I considered selling my 150 and buying a used 170, but the resale value isn't so great for the 150. Just saw it at b&h for almost $1k less than what I paid. I'm in a similar boat, embarking on a few docs.
 
So I'm getting the impression that HMC150 would be OK, HVX 170 better if I can spring for it. No big surprise there. For those who have them, have you shot with HVXes in difficult weather conditions (i.e., cold winters, humid heat, polluted air, etc)? How do they hold up to conditions like that. Comparable to the DVX (which, in my experience so far, is an absolute champion)?
 
The HMC and HPX are almost indentical when it comes to to overall look of the image, gamma curve, matrix and so on. It is the scene files that makes the biggest difference when judging them on vimeo or youtube. In any case you'll have a great camera in your hands. HMC is a bit more webb-based work, while the HPX is more of a cam for TV IMO. The HMC isn't the best for greenscreen, while the HPX is better since of the 4.2.2.
 
custerc said:
So I'm getting the impression that HMC150 would be OK, HVX 170 better if I can spring for it. No big surprise there. For those who have them, have you shot with HVXes in difficult weather conditions (i.e., cold winters, humid heat, polluted air, etc)? How do they hold up to conditions like that. Comparable to the DVX (which, in my experience so far, is an absolute champion)?
Click to expand...

One thing to do with all cams is to make sure you acclimate it to the temp of the setting environment. Open your bag little by little over 15min, so the temp change isnt drastic. A friend of mine has a dead dvx because of this . My HPX170 is pretty solid , but as it has been posted previously I'm not sure how environmentally-sealed it really is. I bought a portabrace rain cover for that reason.
 
Admir said:
The HMC and HPX are almost indentical when it comes to to overall look of the image, gamma curve, matrix and so on. It is the scene files that makes the biggest difference when judging them on vimeo or youtube. In any case you'll have a great camera in your hands. HMC is a bit more webb-based work, while the HPX is more of a cam for TV IMO. The HMC isn't the best for greenscreen, while the HPX is better since of the 4.2.2.
Click to expand...

IMO:

The only thing that the hpx 170 has over the hmc 150 is that it shoots dvcprohd out of the box !


If you shot the same scene with both camera's know one would know once it's was aired on TV.
And for greenscreen well that really depends on how you light it and how experienced your compositor is.
If you are delivering your footage to someone else like say a news company who has invested in p2 ..go with the hpx 170.
If you will be doing all the editing by yourself go with the hmc 150.

Goodluck !
 
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Everts said:
The only thing that the hpx 170 has over the hmc 150 is that it shoots dvcprohd out of the box !
Click to expand...
There's a lot more to it than that! The HPX170 does lots of things the HMC150 doesn't, such as:
variable frame rates
time lapse
standard-def recording
HD-SDI output
vectorscope
firewire streaming
uncompressed audio

... and probably a dozen things I don't remember right now. Those are just the things that popped into my head immediately.

Yes they're very similar hardware. But the HPX170 costs more for a reason. The question the buyer has to face is -- do those reasons matter to me?
 
I was faced with a similar decision over the last few months and ultimately saved a little more and waited a few weeks and went with the HPX170 for the reasons everyone lists. Granted, I work in local television and that was a small factor. But I don't run around doing stringer work. I shoot everything you can think of, from interviews, to videos for an animal rescue, to local sports, to short films for fun, and needed a camera that shoots everything and well. Without jumping up to the AF100 the HPX170 just seemed the best camera in this range, and better overall than the HMC150. I even like it a little more than the Sony EX1 which I have used. Plus, I figured I could always save up and buy (or just borrow) P2 cards and hard drives if I needed to shoot more, such as on a long trip.

The other good news for you is that because of the AF100's imminent release and the DSLR craze people are dumping these fine cameras. Look at the usual places and you'll often find ones with very low hours and in near perfect shape for about $3,000. A stunning thought if one thinks back just two years.
 
Barry and snow...you are so right. being 'just behind the cutting edge" means you keep your knife sharp, your costs down, and get to buy equipment that is likely just fine for the job. If I would have been able to buy a 170 for $3k a year ago, I would not have bought the 150 I have. But that's not to say I dislike the 150, it's just that now I better understand how I would use all the features that Barry points out.

By the way, what's the problem with the 150 and Green screen? I've done green screen with my 150, and it seems ok. Worse I get is sometimes a bit of a green tinge to the edges of the mask, like it's 'bleeding' over. I figured that was probably Vegas and not the camera. Am I mistaken? Is the 170 going to be that much better at GS? Especially if I'm converting to 4:2:2 it should be ok, correct?
 
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No, because the camera is shooting 4:2:0, and compressing it more than the HPX's DVCPRO codec. That's where your "problem" lies. You could covert it to 4:4:4 uncompressed and still have the same issue.

I hear you on the cutting edge, but I have to say I feel like we long ago passed "good enough". Like, the HVX200, or maybe the DVX100. There are a lot of people on here still making money with their DVX100s. But we all (me too sometimes) often split hairs over every last feature a camera will do.
 
Definitely agreed on the"good enough" comment, SnowLeo.... Hell I still do tons of work on my DVCAM DSR250, looks great. I've been following the 170 since it came out. I think being too broke to get it for so long was a very good thing. Now I don't think I'll buy anything until I've seen all the tech problems play themselves out.(And the price falls a grand or so).
 
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