GH5 How interested are you in a GH6 anymore?

Bassman2003 said:
This kind of parlays from the S1H thread where I asked if folks thought the S1H, S1 and S5 have the exact same image and the answer seemed to be yes.
Click to expand...
The S1H has an OLPF that the others lack, though. I go on about this because I think it’s important. What I like about the GH5S is its near-total lack of weird artefacts in the image, due to the OLPF and short readout time. Likely a camera that will age well (though much better if Panasonic enabled Raw output with a firmware update).
 
In terms of interest, for me to have interest in the GH6 which actually rises to the level of purchase, Panasonic's color science would have to get better. Someone mentioned Kasey at camera conspiracies and I think he's spot on about colors - Panasonic's are the worst. I have to work so hard to make skin tones look natural/good on any of their cameras. It can be done, but man o man are those colors baked in, and not for the better.

Contrast that with Olympus, which straight out of camera looks great. When I need a bit more dynamic range I shoot flat, then add a very minor LUT, and I'm done. In fact, even un-touched the flat profile looks better then anything coming out of the GH5 (I own both cameras, so this isn't based on liking one brand per se over the other).

I do understand that some prefer the Panny look, but if you don't you'll play hell trying to get it look like something different. For quick turn arounds (or for people who simply hate to grade), the Oly (and black magic) wins on that alone. The bells & whistles of the Panasonic (and the menu) far outpaces Olympus, but I'm guessing 8 out of 10 people would prefer the image from the Oly in a blind taste test.

I think Panasonic's in a bind - realistically, there's not much more technical specs they can improve on - I guess they could go 12 bit/8 K, but there's almost no demand for it in full frame, and I'm guessing even less in MFT. They could offer 240 fps in 4K slo-mo, but again, how many people are going to buy a camera just for that? Global shutter? The GH5 is already nearly that good anyway - certainly no regular Joe would see the slight improvement a global shutter might provide, and I'm guessing most of us don't care that much either.

If Panasonic can somehow deliver a MFT camera that's as good as a Sony in low light or a camera with dynamic range as good as an Arri or Fuji, then we'd all be very interested. But that's all but impossible on a MFT sized senor unless Panasonic goes all-in on computational imaging. They might, but nothing so far in any of their cameras suggests this happening (unlike Olympus which is already trending that way).

And all of the above assumes Panasonic goes to phase detect AF (or something equally good), and there's been absolutely zero indication that will happen either.

I'm guessing Panasonic will announce the GH6, if no other reason to save face, and that it might have one "Wow!" improvement, something the S series doesn't have, but that'll be it. The colors will be the same, the AF will be jank, and it will more or less be a GH5s with IBIS. That alone may get dedicated MFT fans to buy it, but it's not likely to attract people looking at full frame - the time for such a camera was at the start of 2020, not the fall of 2021. Panasonic would truly have to get radical to save their part in the format, something they've be very loathe to do considering their cinema line and the S series.

Sony isn't standing pat - some youtubers already asking if people looking at the Sony a7sIII should wait for the next FF from them. Sony seem quite willing to kill off weaker camera companies - as they've nearly done to Nikon - and I can't see them waiting for Panasonic to finally figure our auto focus.

The one area where Panasonic could win is with very aggressive pricing, but again there's no indication of that sort of philosophy switch based on anything they're selling now (the GH5s is at this very moment selling for $1,800). I don't want to rain on any parades, but that's pie-in-the-sky pricing. Kinda hard to think that a GH6 that combines the best of the GH5 & GH5s plus new features is going to cost $1000. Or even $2000.

Put another way, if Panasonic releases a GH6 for $2500 (or more), it's dead in the water from moment one. Will we want one? Probably. Will we buy it at this price if it's anything less then perfection? Not likely. The ugly truth is that Olympus is probably the format's only real hope as they have no other line-ups to protect. Black Magic's moved on to larger sensors and aren't likely to look back, and Panasonic will be pouring whatever R&D they have left into trying to make full frame work for them, both in their cine lineup & hybrid. Again, it make almost no sense to deliver an ass-kicking MFT camera for $3000 - no one will buy it. No one. This doubly true for a company that is also making full frame cameras.

So yeah, I'd have interest in a GH6 with better colors out of camera, the light sensitivity of a GH5s, the dynamic range of the Fuji XT4, better battery life, better slo-mo, and a completely different auto focusing system for $1500 (or less). At this point - knowing that Sony is only going to get better/cheaper - why should we be any less demanding? Heck, Fuji's looking to make big strides in 2021 too. Canon may even decide to stop cripple hammering their cameras....

'Course, the GH6 might simply be a camera aimed solely at vloggers or people wanting a better camera for zoom meetings. But considering DP Review just named the DC-G100 worst camera of the year (and they're not alone), even hoping for a great vlogging GH6 might be hoping for too much.
 
That’s a lot of strong statements, John.

Couple of points:

Panasonic’s colour in the G9 and GH5S is greatly improved from the GH5 that you are using as the basis for your criticism.

As an Olympus user, I don’t subscribe to the dogma that Olympus colours are great. On the contrary, I find them gaudy – but I shoot Raw for stills so don’t care. I much prefer the latest-gen Panasonic colours, which I’d put up against the best available (though earlier generations were dire).

Re there being “almost no demand” for 8K: then why are people tripping over themselves to pay FOUR THOUSAND DOLLARS for an overheating EOS R5? That camera lacks a load of video features that even basic Panasonics have, though I admit it also does things like internal Raw (at 2600 Mbps, presumably no-one actually uses it) and decent autofocus. I suggest the main draw is 8K. That’s a big number and people like big numbers out of all proportion to their practical usefulness, cf. the current widespread fetish for full-frame sensors.
 
Panasonic slogan should be “good enough auto focus (not really) but we did improve it a little”

The R5 was such a success because professionals still use cameras designed for photography to take photos. Hybrid shooters like journalists would only use video to capture short video clips. Generally speaking when you get into higher end corporate work they don’t want good enough.

Long ago when Sony and Canon realized phase detect was the future and began spending time and money perfecting it, Panasonic was satisfied with tweaking good enough contrast based. With each year that passes they double down on cotrast based.

So I fully expect Panasonic will eventually release the GH6 with new and improved good enough contrast af.
 
Samuel Dilworth said:
That’s a lot of strong statements, John.

Re there being “almost no demand” for 8K: then why are people tripping over themselves to pay FOUR THOUSAND DOLLARS for an overheating EOS R5?
Click to expand...


Because Canon users want a non-crop 4K Canon camera... that Canon has, for some reason, made 8K. While I can, perhaps, understand why a very high end Hollywood special effects driven film might desire 8K video, it makes virtually zero sense in any other context.

Put another way, I think they're be much more demand (and a whole lot less bad press) for the R5 & R6 if they simply shot 4K and didn't over-heat at all. I don't think people are buying the R5/6 because they have 8K but in spite of them having 8K.

Of the "wish list" seen in this thread, I don't think 8K has been mentioned once.

Color science is perhaps the most subjective subject in the video/camera world. But for my tastes, every time I compare GH5 footage to the Oly, I'm blown away by how good the Oly looks. Simply put, it's a a whole lot easier to de-saturate good looking color then trying to fix bad color.

Hey, it's one of the areas that Panasonic can improve on and, unlike auto focus, it is an area where they have shown better than incremental improvement. I would want that trend to continue, to have the colors continue to trend towards the Canon/Olympus look, and to have whatever color science they're using to be less baked in.

YMMV of course.
 
The R5 was designed around that high res sensor to take photos. The marketing department used the 8k video to hype the camera. From their perspective it was fantastic because it created a lot of buzz. I used to scoff at these higher resolutions but when they're down sampled to 4k it makes the image look ridiculously good. All of these cameras have to make a compromise with how they will deal with the extra resolution. Its a choice between down sampling, line skipping, pixel binning, or cropping. The R5 shines at 4k but looks worse at 1080. The A7sIII uses a lower res sensor so it can do a 1:1 to read out which generates less heat and looks good. Cropping is another way the A7III does that but that can mess up your angle of view if you want to change resolutions. It's really a mix bag.

As far as color. It's always has been the case that consumers prefer higher contrast and saturation. Even pros, depending on their work flow don't have the time to color grade, so would prefer it bake in. This is the sort of stuff that gets talked mostly on forums. If you took a poll how many people who buy these cameras actually color grade I think it wouldn't be that high especially if they had lie detector. At the end of the day camera manufactures do things to sell cameras and are more concerned with features that sell or that the average user would want.
 
Last edited:
markoconnell said:
"Again, it make almost no sense to deliver an ass-kicking MFT camera for $3000 - no one will buy it. No one."

This is complete rubbish.
Click to expand...

Based on what? The massive sales of MFT units in 2020? The poor sales of Canon R 5/6's and Sony a7sIII's? The massive success of the only $3000 MFT camera ever released, the Oly EM1X? The amazing response to Panasonic's G100 or the BGH1?

I could go on, but suffice it to say that every single objective indication is that full frame cameras are the only growth segment in the market. It is also fair to say that Panasonic's MFT releases for 2020 were underwhelming to say the least.

The GH6 - assuming it's announced in the spring (and that's a big assumption given the above facts) - would presumably only be available in late 2021. Which means there's zero chance a $3000 MFT camera is going to be a big seller after yet another year of full frame releases and advancements (and subsequent drop in used and new prices).

Zero. Will some die hards buy it, particularly if Panasonic finally quits death by defocus? Sure. But, just like the EM1X, it won't be in enough numbers to make it worth Panasonic's while....

...And speaking of that, realistically, what possible motivation does Panasonic have in releasing a GH6 at all, other then reputation as existing MFT users flee to full frame while new users look only at full frame? More specifically, why would they ever release a MFT camera that significantly outpaces their cine & S lineups? (assuming it's technically even possible)

When the GH5 came out, there was no EVA 1, no Panasonic full frame lineup at all, the camera industry as a whole was healthy, and existing full frame cameras lagged behind MFT in several important areas. None of that's true anymore.

This thread is about interest in camera that may well never happen, a camera for people who presumably haven't already sold off their existing MFT bodies & glass because they either like the (few remaining) benefits the format provides, or simply don't want to bother with selling off all their gear just to turn around and buy all new stuff.

So sure, if iPanny crams a GH5 & GHs together with phase detect AF and S series color, I'd be interested... but certainly not for $3,000, and probably not for $2000 either. That time has passed. And if it's passed for me, a lover of the format, it's almost certainly passed for people just jumping into camera systems from scratch.
 
There are still 2/3″-type cameras selling for 25 grand. So obviously there remains a handful of people who evaluate a camera on the sum of its merits rather than whether it has some arbitrary size of sensor.

The GH6 can be a camera for those people. People like me. A 4/3″-type sensor is more than enough for perceptually noiseless video. That’s enough for me. I don’t need better than perfect. I need the rest of the camera not to be a shoddy, barely workable mess. Did you know the EOS R5 doesn’t have a full-size HDMI port? How is that excusable at its price? (You can tell the R5 baffles me, or rather its success does. What a cynical product.)

I don’t need autofocus at all, much less the world’s best tracking autofocus … but, sure, I’m not trying to shoot live events.

Meanwhile, the very lack of full-frame gives Panasonic room to throw features and capability at the GH6 without stepping on the toes of the S-series cameras.

This gives them two cards to play: a great camera and a full-frame camera. Why would that be a bad plan for Panasonic?
 
For me, the GH6 needs to close the gap between m43 and its full frame rivals. We already know the benefits of m43 (specifically GH5), but some of the unique advantages like fast pixel readouts, internal 10 bit 4:2:2, IBIS, articulating screen, and slo-mo aren't unique anymore in a world of full frame cameras. The GH6 needs to pull at least one feature from the full frame column in order to stay competitive. A GH6 with very good AF would be competitive. A GH6 with outstanding low light performance would be competitive. A GH6 with both would be a game-changer. A GH6 with neither is DOA in my opinion.
 
It is a great debate, but I think jdv has nailed it. Soon there will be little room for hardly any cameras on the market. So niche type formats are going to need to be low cost or massively feature rich. Once everybody buys an R5, a7SIII and S5, how many will there be left to buy a GH6 if it is released in 2021? I see the whole camera market as a rush to get sales before the market collapses over the next few years. I do not see YouTubers as a upgrade class. Buy any of the three cameras listed above and one can YouTube until the end of time. The cell phones are killing the future of ILC's compounded with the three cameras listed above being very feature rich for video folks. Coming from my perspective, the need to upgrade in the future is substantially decreased with a purchase today. Sort of a "last camera" syndrome. I know this is a myth, but the market to make money with these cameras is changing as well. Image quality has been met and exceeded with budgets falling through the floor.

So timing is crucial imho. A mid to late 2021 release of a GH6 seems like it would seal its fate. I expected Panasonic to announce the thing in November. Been kind of waiting but it will be difficult after the first of the year.
 
The GH5 was a solid reliable workhorse that you could rely on to film with all day long. For many people who like working with smaller cameras, and may also need to take photos it became their main camera. I don't see much competition in the small mirrorless world to that even now however many years later. Only Panasonics own S1H really provides all of that reliability in a small form
The R5 may be good for short bursts but that's it, and with 30 minute limit and micro hdmi is not going to be the main camera for many. The A7s3 is better but still sounds like there are warnings that it may overheat and the IBIS is pretty poor, photo side is somewhat compromised.
Panasonic need to improve lowlight, AF, DR, keep bettering the competition with IBIS and rolling shutter and lens reach (and their audio XLr add on is better than Sonys), and then give a few things the full frame competition hasn't such as internal nd, sdi, locking mount perhaps. And sell it well under the price of these big full frame cameras which shouldn't be too tricky. In the UK the R5 is £4200, a7s3 £3800, crazy money... put a GH6 about £2250 and people will buy
 
The A7SIII really only overheats if it's baking in the hot sun, which will happen to the GH5 as well (apparently it happened to Tom Roper). I've rolled long duration 4k60 with my A7SIII without a problem. It threw an overheat warning one time when I was using a smartphone monitor/controller for a few hours straight. I closed the wifi connection and the warning went away. I probably have ny overheat warning set to low tho
 
An Olympus engineer (and someone apparently high up) went on the record recently and said that Olympus will release new MFT cameras and there will be more video oriented models. What that means exactly is still unknown. From a technical point of view, a codec update or an ability to record Raw externally is an upgrade too and can be done in an existing body.

Others opine that Olympus will keep selling off the existing inventory and/or the existing bodies with only minor improvement. But the feeling that Panasonic has moved onto FF and left the MFT all to Olympus also percolates on the webs.
 
Bassman2003 said:
... I do not see YouTubers as a upgrade class.
Click to expand...

I make $6,000 to $7,000 per year on YouTube, and I'm just a middling YouTuber. I use gear a lot, and it breaks and wears out and needs replacement, so there are definitely YouTubers who buy gear continuously. Once my GH5 breaks (as my GH3 did before I got the GH5), I will strongly consider a GH6 if it is available. After all, I have five Panasonic M43 lenses that will fit a GH6 and take advantage of the family relationship.

And my YouTube earnings are growing. Who knows? Maybe I can make a case to the boss (my wife) that I need a GH6 even though the GH5 still works fine. After all, it's good to have a backup, right?
 
PS. There was apparently a fire inside a plant manufacturing the microprocessors and the LSI motherboards for Sony, which forced the company to stop the production of A6100. Maybe it's one of those Paulie Cicero fire. Who knows.
 
BobKo said:
I make $6,000 to $7,000 per year on YouTube, and I'm just a middling YouTuber. I use gear a lot, and it breaks and wears out and needs replacement, so there are definitely YouTubers who buy gear continuously. Once my GH5 breaks (as my GH3 did before I got the GH5), I will strongly consider a GH6 if it is available. After all, I have five Panasonic M43 lenses that will fit a GH6 and take advantage of the family relationship.

And my YouTube earnings are growing. Who knows? Maybe I can make a case to the boss (my wife) that I need a GH6 even though the GH5 still works fine. After all, it's good to have a backup, right?
Click to expand...

Yes, backups are good and you might purchase a GH6 when it is released. I think any market outside of the traditional use case for these cameras is fickle and tough to rely upon for longer range product development. If phones get better, why wouldn't one use a lighter, easier to use and cheaper item to do what they do? When cameras were more limited, the upgrade path was long and wide as we were all aiming for frankly, where we are at now. Now that we are here, what does the next five years look like? For my business, not too different or pressing to be different. Does shooting in 8k make YouTube videos much better? I don't think so, which means probably others think the same about the need to spend money on new equipment for production.
 
Bassman2003 said:
If phones get better, why wouldn't one use a lighter, easier to use and cheaper item to do what they do?
Click to expand...

Another item the phone can replace for me before impacting my use of real cameras, is the copy machine. And the mirror. Sometimes when I need to read the label on back of something like the fridge, the close focusing size really works wonders. The one thing it can never replace is the princess telephone with a long cord for those young enough to remember.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top