C100: How do non DPAF users maintain focus during run n gun filming?

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Barry1908

Active member
Thinking a lot about new kit and wanting 10 bit and all the tools on my b cameras eg zebra, peaking etc.
Currently shooting C100 and for run and gun, event work I use it ALWAYS. Just a tap here or there to maintain focus and not blow a shot with the dreaded focus hunt. I guess my question is if I were to jump ship to 10 bit Sony land am I going to have shoot at max f11 and spend several hours a week practising focus?

Barry.
 
In reality, I suspect yes - you will need to shut the lens down and practice. That said, over the years, I've tried a few things to help me, and a wrap of camera tape with a small nut or sim liar under it really helps me feel where the ring actually is - infinity end stop, then a bump at my usual close focus distance - so when you suddenly need to be sharp on a person in the frame, you can twist and when the bump is vertical, you feel the bump and stop. You can get very quick with the changes this way.
 
You could also stay on the ship but maybe move to the bow and try the C200?

(Although I'm thinking getting the 10-bit from the RAW won't work for you.)
 
Perhaps rent a 10-bit (or more) camera and shoot side-by-side with your C100. Then you'll see if extra bits will really help for the kind of shooting and grading you do. Remember extra bits won't help DR: the extra bits provide more gradients, and are most helpful with log gammas and/or extreme grading in post. Final deliverables are 8-bit 420 (unless doing HDR-TV/cinema).

Dave's experience matches mine (sometimes > 8-bits won't help):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rz_ZjdwtUQ8

I need to do more tests: when comparing 1DX II 4k 8-bit to C300 II 10-bit (4K or 1080p), the 10-bit seemed to be doing better regarding spill reduction for blonde hair with green screen. Surprisingly, the 8-bit 1DX II with custom picture styles (Filmic Skin, not log emulations) has better skintone highlight behavior vs. the C300 II shooting various forms of log and 10- or 12-bit. This appears to be sensor/color-science related and not encoding / bit-depth related.

For manual focusing, the biggest issue is having a large enough (view) and high enough resolution display to be able to accurately see focus, something you haven't experienced with a stock C100. I was able to use the A7S II with (weak) contrast AF for events by programming a button to allow me to manually override AF when needed. Worked well enough. Recent Sony cameras such as the A7 III have pretty usable AF.

The Sony FS5-II with VENICE color science could be pretty cool (better than C100 and perhaps C200 as well). You'll need Sony native lenses to get the best possible AF (they're also silent, unlike Canon still lenses).
 
paulears said:
I've tried a few things to help me, and a wrap of camera tape with a small nut or sim liar under it really helps me feel where the ring actually is - infinity end stop, then a bump at my usual close focus distance - so when you suddenly need to be sharp on a person in the frame, you can twist and when the bump is vertical, you feel the bump and stop. You can get very quick with the changes this way.
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Paul, I can't quite visualize how you have this set up. Got time for a quick picture?

Thanks!

Jim "visual thinker...like most of us :)" Feeley
 
Thanks for the excellent responses, it seems it’s not one thing but a change in the way of operating as a whole. Good point to see if I need 10 bit or not. It just feels like I should have it, at least the C200 has RAW, but maybe a used c300mk2 might be better because I don’t shoot a huge amount of slomo. Edit: Maybe a high niy 7 inch monitor is the way to go...I will say I’m seeing a lot of DSLR stuff supplied lately in 4k with ambitious focus pulls that never quite hit tack sharp, I’m wondering how these operators manage to get repeat business.
 
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Practice, practice, practice. That's what it comes down to.

A big part of it is being able to judge distances, and also knowing the behaviour of your lenses (ie knowing by feel alone how much you need to turn your lens to focus x feet closer). And always observe your scenes and see where everything is in a 3-d space - this will help you when you look at the 2-D image because you will know which objects are just about to come into focus next.
 
The only way I would have a hope of hitting manual focus points is with good old manual lenses (Nikon if you are poor, Cine lenses if you have money). Trying to hit manual focus with focus by wire lenses like the majority of my Canon still lenses are is a joke, almost impossible. Every time I am tempted to jump platforms to something like an EVA 1 or FS5 II, I'll do a run & gun shoot with my C200 in nuclear daylight off of a moving boat, shooting my subjects off of another moving boat and the DAF on the C200 will nail it 95% of the time. I couldn't do that manually no matter which camera and which lenses. My hope is that eventually Panasonic and Sony will adopt the same technology with phase detect AF and then it will become industry standard. It's kind of weird that Canon has been the only ones to really nail a pro level AF system. Doesn't replace ACs by any means but for documentary and run & gun shooting, nothing else touches DAF right now, although I've heard the newest Sony AF is getting pretty good. Even the manual focus assist tool in the Canons is so good.
 
Unless you're losing out on jobs because you don't have 10-bit, or unless your employer demands you capture in 10-bit, you might not actually need 10-bit.
 
drummondb said:
Unless you're losing out on jobs because you don't have 10-bit, or unless your employer demands you capture in 10-bit, you might not actually need 10-bit.
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Same with 4K, 6K, 8K, 4:2:2, RAW, etc. Too many of us buy and obsess over what we want, not what our clients need us to deliver to them. None of my clients care about things like 10-bit, 4:2:2 or greater color space, etc. They care if I capture the moments that they want or surprise them with great content they didn't even know existed. THey care about composition, lighting and good audio. They do care about color science, I have two clients who ONLY want to shoot on Canon and despise Sony's color science and don't have the budgets to shoot on RED or Arri. I have one client who only want to shoot on RED.
 
I think most of us, besides new bud filmmakers over the last few years have always pulled manual focus or had the luxury of an AC. We are now spoiled by DPAF ;). I would simply suggest practicing manual focus with your current camera and you’ll be fine. However, canon still Lenses are a pain to pull focus on. No hard stops is dreadful...and can make pulling focus a headache. Hence why DPAF is the greatest tool to have in your arsenal as a one man band. I owned/ shoot RED almost excuslively for several years. Nothing but an Alexa came close for me image wise. Even though I still prefer REDs overall image, dynamic range, and post processing setup, the C200 gets me 90% there. If RED had DPAF they would be king in my book...but I still much prefer the Canon C200 form factor...it’s amazing.
 
puredrifting said:
The only way I would have a hope of hitting manual focus points is with good old manual lenses (Nikon if you are poor, Cine lenses if you have money). Trying to hit manual focus with focus by wire lenses like the majority of my Canon still lenses are is a joke, almost impossible. Every time I am tempted to jump platforms to something like an EVA 1 or FS5 II, I'll do a run & gun shoot with my C200 in nuclear daylight off of a moving boat, shooting my subjects off of another moving boat and the DAF on the C200 will nail it 95% of the time. I couldn't do that manually no matter which camera and which lenses. My hope is that eventually Panasonic and Sony will adopt the same technology with phase detect AF and then it will become industry standard. It's kind of weird that Canon has been the only ones to really nail a pro level AF system. Doesn't replace ACs by any means but for documentary and run & gun shooting, nothing else touches DAF right now, although I've heard the newest Sony AF is getting pretty good. Even the manual focus assist tool in the Canons is so good.[/QUOTEi

——-
It’s not like I haven’t shot with manual before 5d3 and broadcast gear before that, but imagining what Puredrifting has said, I can put myself in that situation mentally and know even though I have to frame everything in the center () that I can still get some semblance of a shot. I think this answers my question in two parts really. A) Practice more with with manual focus because that’s just what an operator should know, but stay with Canon and DPAF until Sony or preferably Panasonic comes to the party, c) DPAF makes you more adventurous in the first place to attempt to pull off shots that you would tell the client just aren’t possible with a big chip camera in the past.
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It's kind of funny that on the professional level, autofocus has never really been a real thought, much less a viable option, until the last couple of years, and now people act like it's impossible to shoot without it.
 
I hear you R&G, but considering the bigger sensors, higher resolutions, fashionably shallow DOFs, expectations to shoot in very low light, and (often) repurposed fly-by-wire lenses we often face these days, manual focus is a bit more challenging.

I had good focusing chops that first developed when I was a kid photog stringing for the local newspaper. That was fun, and shooting Tri-X was pretty forgiving (and pushable), as was the 80lpi halftones used for their newsprint (Ancient memories; I think I have this all basically right). But I felt I had more control than I do with modern fly-by-wire lenses... Though many years as a print/magazine writer and editor sure didn't help me improve or maintain what chops I had.

So I think my first sentence here --part-- of the deal. The second paragraph is just me wistfully reminiscing.
 
puredrifting said:
Trying to hit manual focus with focus by wire lenses like the majority of my Canon still lenses are is a joke, almost impossible.
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The simple solution is to use non-STM lenses. It's still nothing like a proper cine lens, but any of the lenses with a mechanical focus ring will at least still behave predictably enough to nail focus most of the time.


puredrifting said:
It's kind of weird that Canon has been the only ones to really nail a pro level AF system.
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Actually it makes perfect sense. Canon are the only ones who have a decent lens selection they can get extra sales on. Very few people would consider Panasonic or Sony lenses for professional film-making - these companies already know that most of their users are adapting other lenses (hence why Panasonic were happy to use EF mount on the EVA1). Canon don't want people to buy a C200 and then put another brand of lens on it - so the best way to make sure they stay with Canon lenses is to make a perfectly compatible system.
 
Run&Gun said:
It's kind of funny that on the professional level, autofocus has never really been a real thought, much less a viable option, until the last couple of years, and now people act like it's impossible to shoot without it.
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This is not the days of 2/3” sensors. Years ago if you had super35 you likely had an AC or better yet, time to do focus marks
 
At this point, I'm not buying another camera unless it also has Canon's Dual Pixel Auto Focus (or it's equivalent). It's just too useful. My 1DX II shoots incredible cinematic 4K footage (8-bit 4:2:2) and the face-tracking autofocus has yet to fail me. And my C100 cameras with DPAF are excellent for event video.

I used to shoot with Panasonic GH4 cameras and Voigtlander all-manual lenses, and got some great footage. But there's no denying that my work is better now because of Canon's DPAF. It's a night-and-day difference. I'm far less stressed about getting the right shot, and end up with a lot more footage that's usable because it's always in focus.
 
deltoidjohn said:
Actually it makes perfect sense. Canon are the only ones who have a decent lens selection they can get extra sales on. Very few people would consider Panasonic or Sony lenses for professional film-making - these companies already know that most of their users are adapting other lenses (hence why Panasonic were happy to use EF mount on the EVA1). Canon don't want people to buy a C200 and then put another brand of lens on it - so the best way to make sure they stay with Canon lenses is to make a perfectly compatible system.
Click to expand...

Sigma are the real winners!
 
I would love to have DPAF on my C100 for my run n' gun work but at $500 for the upgrade that's nearly 1/3 of the resale price of the cam at this point. I even emailed Canon to suggest that they lower the price of the upgrade for non-DPAF owners in my situation (I doubt they're doing many upgrades at this point) but I could almost hear them laughing as they responded to my email...
 
Manual focus isn't that hard if you have the right tools. I used an inexpensive viewfinder attached to the back of a 5D3 (along with a simple single handle mounted below the camera) to shoot this footage while Elena and I ran around randomly:
https://vimeo.com/92437795
This was using 14-bit ML raw with ML's peaking. It's not great focusing, however it was my first attempt with that setup and I found it relatively easy. With practice and shot planning, better results can be achieved. Trying to focus on a little external screen was the opposite: very difficult because I couldn't see what was in focus. 5" or larger external monitors with sufficient resolution and peaking are used by tons of people to get focus.

Here you can see a Small HD with sun shield being used to focus the 6K => 4K Sony VENICE.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EWyDHgcpTI
For this shoot they did mostly deep DOF to show off the insanely high quality detailed VENICE 6K sensor which makes Red 8K look soft (color science looks as good or better than Canon, might start giving ARRI a run for the money on skintones (different looks for both cameras; VENICE and Alexa LF both look stunning in their own ways)). Sony's A7 III has pretty good AF: they could add even better AF to the VENICE if they wanted to (which of course also helps with MF as with DPAF Boosted MF).

In summary, for me to really nail manual focus, I need a high resolution image and an eye piece with optics, so I can clearly see what is in focus, even without peaking.
 
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