F35: Holy smokes, I bought a F35 too
- Thread starter keisersoze
- Start date
Really? It was always said the F65 had superior color to the F55 and it was actually noticeable too. It always looked better. I could never see the F55 pulling off Oblivion or Cafe Society for example.
But what do you mean take full advantage of Venice’s newer S709 color science? Are you talking about a node in Davinci or actual upload of curves or profiles to the F65?
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Grug
Veteran
The F65 has a 6k sensor, so thanks to downsampling it has a much more resolute 4k image than the F55. That's why it looks better. The CFA (which is responsible for the colour) is the same though, they use the same filter and the same dyes (Venice too).
All three cameras have SLOG3/Sgamut3.cine, so with matching CFAs, the colour science is essentially identical (or at least as close to identical as you're going to get in three cameras with different sensor-tech underlying their CFAs).
You can upload the S709 LUT to both the F55 and F65 if you want to take advantage of it for monitoring. And you can use it to de-log your footage in any grading software to bring the image to a much more appealing starting point than any camera Sony has made since the F35.
The underlying colour science is no different from what Sony's top cameras have been working with since they introduced SLOG3/Sgamut3.cine 6 years ago, but how that colour data is now interpreted (via S709) is an oceanic improvement over what they were doing before.
So it was all marketing when Sony was swearing the F65 didn't use the same CFA as the F55. A Sony rep even said as much on the old Sony forums. Figures. Regardless the F65 always looked infinitely better than the F55.
But that is very good news for F65 owners. Because apart from Oblivion, which looked great, every other project with the F65 fell short of impressing. Event with Storaro behind the F65. It looked harsh and hard and the colors looked video like. This could potentially solve some of the issues. But you still have HD monitoring only in a 4K camera and a closed system plus the other things normally complained about the F65. But the color is sure a big benefit if it can look similar to the Venice. Do you know of any F65 user footage with Venice color?
By the way, have you gone for a 4K camera or are you still on Alexa as well?
Grug
Veteran
To be honest I don't remember ever hearing that mentioned. My recollection was always that the F55 shared its big brother's CFA. Sony are very clear about that in their own materials:
https://pro.sony/s3/cms-static-content/file/86/1237490999286.pdf
Personally I feel like a large reason behind the F65's failure to launch (besides the more obvious workflow idiocies - compared to Arri and Red at the time) was that colourists struggled so much with the original colour science.
So there's only a handful of movies shot with it that look great colour-wise, namely: Oblivion, Belle, Tomorrowland and the Evil Dead remake.
I suspect that if productions had had S709 available at the time (to use as a starting point), most of the ones that did use the camera would have ended up looking a lot better than they did.
A while back I started getting enough demands to deliver 4k that I couldn't ignore them any more, I looked very seriously into dropping $110,000 on a Mini LF, but the rental rates here on the MILF fell (very quickly) down to 1% (meaning you'd need 110 full rental days + interest to pay it back) so that just didn't make sense financially. So instead I sold off my trusty F3 (which was my cheap camera to offer productions) and picked up an F55 to replace it.
And S709 has made it totally relevant again.
Oh so F55? And you kept the Alexa still?
What was your thought process for going with a F55, having had the F5 and moved away from it, as opposed to a F65 or even a Canon?
Do you have any footage from the F55 with the Venice color? Would love to see that.
Grug
Veteran
Yep, I kept the Alexa. Well, I kept it until the start of this year at least - when basically all of the Arri jobs we were shooting kept ordering Minis or Amiras - for "4k". At that point I figured it was time to move on.
With the F55 the thought process was pretty simple. I needed 4k, and Sony hold a large market share here in Oz (which makes considering a Varicam or Canon a little riskier). The FS7/FS7ii were out of the running (because the ergonomics/menus s*%t me, timecode input is essential to my sound recordists, and 300Mbps XAVC isn't high-enough quality for a majority of the things I shoot). Spending $90,000 on a Venice (as nice as it is) made even less sense than the Mini LF - since the rental returns are even lower, and the price difference between the two isn't all that high.
The F55 would let me remain a global shutter snob, give me 16-bit 4k raw at up to 120fps (if I rent the R7) or 60fps with the R5 (which I bought with the camera), with the v8 firmware quick-menu and importing false-colour LUTs, it's reasonably painless operationally (at least compared to every other Japanese camera). And because it has the Venice's CFA and can use the S709 colour science (which I really like), it just seemed like the best option at the time.
It also has the advantage that any job that requests an FS7 or F5 (which is most of the jobbing-cameraman jobs down here) everyone is more than happy to have the F55 instead, but unlike the cheaper cameras, the F55 can also play on higher-end fair as well, like the commercial I shot for Mastercard on it. So the F55 has a level of versatility that a lot of others don't in that regard - everyone's happy to use the same camera they shot $100 million dollar shows like The Crown and Marco Polo on.
So it's a camera I can comfortably sit on for the time-being. I'm going to wait and see what Arri cooks up with their upcoming 4k S35mm camera - which if they've been listening to all the repeated requests I've been giving to the team at Arri Australia (unlikely, but a fella can hope!) will hopefully be the lightweight, 4:3 sensored, uni-body Alexa Mini of my dreams (with much more useful internal NDs and a much faster boot time).
Here's some preliminary grabs from a shoot I did over the weekend with the F55, these are SLOG3/Sgamut3.cine shots which literally have the S709 LUT applied, and the blacks pulled down a little and that's it - and I'm actually not sure I'll do anything much more to them (which prior to S709 was NEVER a thing I'd say about Sony footage!):
Run&Gun
Veteran
F55 really is a much better camera than the F5. People bought the F5 for one simple reason, at one point Sony was selling it for half the price of the F55. I’m glad I held out for the ~year I did and got a used F55 for only $5K more than the F5. I probably made up that difference just in straight rentals to other people. Even though it’s ancient in camera years, it’s still a great camera that is still in-demand and can fit in pretty much anywhere, and has. Sony made a f*****g Swiss Army Knife for the ages with this one. I say it’s kinda like my Omega Seamaster Pro, it goes with a T-shirt or a tuxedo.
So you did sell the Alexa? Interesting. I'm kind of on the same boat. But not quite ready yet to let go from Alexa. Simply because there is no 4K or beyond camera which makes as nice images so easily. It would have to be the 4K Alexa or a 4K F35. But if choosing between the F55 and F65, I think to replace the Alexa it would have to be the F65 for me. But I think I understand why you went with the F55. You were not only replacing the Alexa. You are basically using the F55 to replace both your F3 and your Alexa.
But a temporary stop 4K solution till a 4K Alexa becomes more realistic can be a good idea. There are so many options too. From the as cheap as possible like a FS700 with 7Q or C500 MKI with external recorder to a more permanent solution with the F65 or a Varicam. Used Varicams are already as cheap as used Alexa Classics. Ditto with F65. So lots of options. But as I said to replace my Alexa I need a 4K Alexa or a 4K F35, which will never exist. I thought the Venice would be the 4K F35. But it is not. It's more an improved F55. I wonder if the F65 with S709 would actually give the Venice a run for the money or even beat it in image alone.
Grug
Veteran
Just to clarify a bit, I haven't actually moved away from shooting Alexa (it's still my A-camera on a big proportion of my jobs), it's just that all of my "Arri" shoots lately have been shooting on Minis or Amiras (in order to record in "4k" Prores). If my Studio was still making money I'd have never let it go, it just didn't make sense to have it sitting on the shelf and not working (as much as I loved it).
If yours is still earning its keep, I don't see any reason to move it on yet.
Personally, I feel like the Venice, the Monstro and the MILF are where the action's at these days. Below them you have S35mm Alexa, and then everything else. If you're rummaging around in the "everything else" pile, I think you should really just go for whatever makes you happy/makes your life on set easier. They all make great images; so ergonomics, handling and workflow should really be the things to decide what you want to work with.
SJX
Veteran
Yes I also thinking of a 4K camera. But I want something cheap but with good image quality. So I was exactly thinking FS700 with 7Q or C500 MKI with external recorder. Which is better guys? Or is there similar price options? I don't want DSLR, fixed lens camcorders or anything like that. Also not selling my F35. This is to complete it by the way. If it cuts well with F35 is a plus point.
Grug
Veteran
The FS700 is horrendous to shoot with, perhaps the worse of Sonys cameras (or maybe on par with the FS5) for having just horrific menus and button layout. That alone would be enough for me to suggest you go with the Canon C500, but the FS700 also doesn't have the advantage of SLOG3/Sgamut3.cine (only the harder to work with SLOG2/Sgamut2).
So if those are your options, I'd definitely go with the Canon. From memory it has really nice external 12-bit 2k 4:4:4 mode (which is what people seemed to get the best results from). Or you can do 10-bit 4k raw out to a recorder (possibly only the Odyssey 7Q, if I'm remembering rightly).
Honestly, used Sony F5s can be had really cheaply at the moment. I'd look into them as well - great internal recording options, and the option of 16-bit 4k raw with an R5 or R7. That'd be a huge step up from either of the other cameras, and with much better highlight latitude (which you'll prefer coming from the F35).
SJX
Veteran
Ok. Well I'm not real fan of neither. I'm fan of F35 images and neither look as good. But for commercial reasons I think something 4K would be good. But in this price besides DSLR and camcorder there is not much. Just blackmagic I think. But this is even worse than FS700. Because at least FS700 has less problems and higher ISO etc. Or you know other option? But C500 might be good idea. Also I think C500 PL is cheaper than EF. Since I have F35 PL is no problem. So maybe I get bargain there. I think advantage of FS700 is slow motion, ND filter, ISO and less noise right?
Grug
Veteran
It's nasty, pixelated HFR with the FS700, I don't remember the rest of the features.
A Blackmagic Pocket 4k or Pocket 6k would be a MUCH better option than either of the other two in my opinion. Good recording options, proper monitoring features, easy to adapt to PL mount if you want. They have dual ISO for low-light situations, and decent HFR options.
You don't get internal NDs with them, but that's a reasonable sacrifice to make I think.
The pictures from the Pockets looked pretty good to me (from what we shot).
SJX
Veteran
Must confess lost interest in blackmagic long ago. So no deep knowledge about them. But isn't pocket like small sensor, low ISO, quality problems and basically like shooting with DSLR?
Grug
Veteran
I've only shot about two weeks of a series on the Blackmagic Pockets (before we were. shut down by COVID), so can't speak to quality problems (we didn't have any while I was using them though), but the image quality was very good (from both the 4k and the 6k).
The 4k is an M43 sensor, but is easy to use a Speedbooster with to get an effective larger sensor to work with S35mm lenses. The 6k has a 6k S35mm sensor (like the F65) which downsamples to lovely 4k images.
Low ISO isn't an issue because they have dual-gain ISO. So can be used comfortably at 3200 ISO.
I'd rate both image quality and usability (with some sensible rigging) is well above the FS700 and the older Canons though. The Blackmagics have the benefits of considerably newer technology.
SJX
Veteran
ok. Thanks. Don't want to mess with speed boosters though. So it would have to be the 6K. But not really the type of camera I wanted. Wanted more of a proper camera and pockets are like DSLRs. Any other options?
SJX
Veteran
This is what I did. Came up with FS700 and C500. All good sonys are expensive: F65, Venice etc. No interest in FS5, FS7 etc. C700, Varicam also too expensive. Ursas I'm scared of them and really want something with basic pro camera feature. Some slo motion, some good ISO, ND, connection, slog or raw high bit and low compression 4K etc. So came up with only FS700 and C500.
Hunter Hampton
Carbonite Member
A bit Off topic but maybe not; I ended up building out a little “baby” Alexa over here, still not as good as the F35 but wanted something a bit more manageable for my “hobby” camera; http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?367709-2020-Alexa-sub-5k-baby-edition&p=1986831582#post1986831582
Might be another option since they are going so cheap on eBay now a days...
Might be another option since they are going so cheap on eBay now a days...