HMC40 - First Look

Barry_Green said:
By diffusion, do you mean diffraction? No, because the iris hasn't changed iris size. If you mean is there some ancillary image effect caused by the edge of the filter and where the "two apertures" meet -- I haven't noticed anything out of the ordinary. It does sort of look like there's two apertures, a "clear" one and an "ND" one, but the resulting image on the monitor looks simply fantastic. I don't know what downside I should be looking for, but my initial examination doesn't show any visible downside at all...
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Oops, yes, I meant diffraction. I think you got my meaning anyhow, but from what you have said, this doesn't actually cause any problems with the image. That's all that matters in the end. Thanks.
 
I was thinking about pros and cons of a high-res chip... So in good light the 40 is undeniably sharper than the 150, but it less sensitive in low light... but so what? If Panasonic engineers have managed to design a decent noise reduction system that would clean up noise at high gain at cost of resolution, then it could happen that in low light with gain kicked in you can have about the same resolution and noise as with the 150, but in good light you would have markedly better resolution. Tie-win!

Considering the above, it would be nice to shoot the resolution chart lit so, that the 150 is fully open at 0dB, the 40 would be somewhere around 18dB. And another one, the 150 at say 12dB, the 40 would be at 30dB. Then compare noise and resolution. Are there several gradations of noise reduction? Would be interesting to try different values and compare.
 
Cranky said:
I was thinking about pros and cons of a high-res chip... So in good light the 40 is undeniably sharper than the 150, but it less sensitive in low light... but so what? If Panasonic engineers have managed to design a decent noise reduction system that would clean up noise at high gain at cost of resolution, then it could happen that in low light with gain kicked in you can have about the same resolution and noise as with the 150, but in good light you would have markedly better resolution. Tie-win!

Considering the above, it would be nice to shoot the resolution chart lit so, that the 150 is fully open at 0dB, the 40 would be somewhere around 18dB. And another one, the 150 at say 12dB, the 40 would be at 30dB. Then compare noise and resolution. Are there several gradations of noise reduction? Would be interesting to try different values and compare.
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Yup, I was thinking exactly the same. The HMC40 has a boat-load more gain than the HMC150 (34dB vs. 12dB). I would guess that CORING would have the most noise reduction effect and SKIN DETAIL some. Throw in different gamma curves, DRS, and DETAIL and the combination's get overwhelming, but a basic test would be interesting. Of course we don't really even know when noise becomes an issue.

Then there is always the possibility of noise reduction in post.
 
So to sum it up

So to sum it up

Hi my HMC40 arrived yesterday from Amazon and it is sitting on my counter still unopened. I am afraid to open it till I am sure it is right camera. I have been scouring internet looking for comments on this camera. I have always been a consumer and never used or learned professional cameras. I have been learning for past few months. I am now doing a project where I do interviews wit people n their homes and light with 3200 watts cool light kits, umbrella, so they are well lit. There will be some indoor shooting with only natural light. I use a wireless and wired Collar Mic on them. I bout new Imac with FCP 7 for editing.I do not under stand The ND and gain settings yet, and will do most on Auto. I do need professional looking and acting camera. At first , after a month of research,I was going to go with 150 , but I read about this and ordered. The 150 is at the top of my price range, but I would rather not spend extra for camera if I don't have to. I will be buying the extra Mic accessories if I keep this camera. I Might also do some weddings in the future. In your homes opinion, should I keep this, or return this and get the 150. (ALL OTHER ACCESSORIES i BOUGHT, CARDS AND BATTERY WILL WORK WITH BOTH)
I do not want grain in final DVD'd on indoor scenes.
Please help. If this message is in wrong section, I apologies in advance and will re-post it there.
Jeff
 
For those who missed the great debate over the pixel offset on the HMC-200 (when it came out). This is going to be the other side of the issue.

In terms of raw resolution, the HMC-40 wins over the HMC-150, BUT the "price" we pay is about 3 stops of low light performance. This is going to be one of several trade-off choices people will need to make in selecting one camera over the other.

If you look closely at the at of focus reflections in the water, you can see the little diamond shaped spots that are caused by iris. I wonder if we were between F2.8 and F6.4, would the diamond shape show light on one half and dark on the other?

HMC-40_Grab.png



Bob Diaz
 
rich_r said:
The HMC40 has a boat-load more gain than the HMC150 (34dB vs. 12dB).
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Well, the HMC150 can (in some modes) go to 18dB, but you wouldn't really want to.

And the HMC40 does indeed have boatloads more gain than the 150, but -- just like on the HV20 -- you don't want to use it. I've shot some shots with varying degrees of coring and will try to figure out where it goes from "okay" to "oh no you din't" but right now I am very confident in saying that anyone who lets it gain itself up to 24dB (or beyond!) is going to regret it! Gain gets nasty at such extreme levels.
 
The two options for setting maximum gain with the 40 are 12 and 24.

So going beyond that level is not possible with the 40
 
LINZAC said:
I am now doing a project where I do interviews wit people n their homes and light with 3200 watts cool light kits, umbrella, so they are well lit. There will be some indoor shooting with only natural light.
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Yes, this is a wrong section, but my quick opinion on this: you don't need to spend $2K or even more just for shooting a simple interview from a tripod. All you care about is resolution/sharpness/sensitivity, and you can the same or better performance from a $500 consumer cam. You don't care about handling and buttons because you will just set the camera up once at the beginning of an interview. You can get the refurb'd Canon HG10 at TigerDirect for $400 and it will produce good enough image. If you want 24p then you need either a native 24p camera like the HMC40 or the HV40 or the SD100, or you will have to use a converter for removing pulldown ($130 for Cineform). In any case, a not very sensitive $2K camera just for interviews seems like an overkill to me.
 
Cranky said:
So you don't have a Sony prosumer cam, but do you have one of the Canons, like the HV20/30/40 or the HG10, the one with the 2MPixel 1/2.7-inch chip?
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No, I had one but I donated it to www.isara.org. The only "consumer" cameras I have are digital-still cameras, the GH1, a PowerShot SD500, and a Fuji FinePix something-or-other.
 
David S. said:
The two options for setting maximum gain with the 40 are 12 and 24.

So going beyond that level is not possible with the 40
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Yes you can, you can use one of the user buttons to allow "high gain". Same idea as the HMC150/HPX170/HVX200, where you normally are limited to +12dB, but with the user button you could go to +18dB. With the HMC40 you're normally limited to +12, you can change it to +24, or you can use the user button to allow up to +34.

Although you shouldn't. See my post #3 in this thread for updates including some gain pictures.
 
Hi, Thanks for quick reply. I will repost Q on other section. I bought this camera For my new business, I do need a professional Looking Camera for credibility, And I do plan on learning the functions. Also, I might Expand to shooting paid events, i.e. the weddings.
I guess my q is if I do go professional, based on my earlier post, will the hmc40 be sufficient, or should I go with 150?
 
So you are limited to about two stops of gain on both the 150 and the 40 until the image starts to fall apart. This means, that gain on the 40 does not really help getting the 40 closer to the 150. Pity.
 
Cranky said:
So you are limited to about two stops of gain on both the 150 and the 40 until the image starts to fall apart. This means, that gain on the 40 does not really help getting the 40 closer to the 150. Pity.
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You can't have it all. If you want the low light performance, spend for the 150. If you want the res, get an HMC40 and buy some lights. The old adage of "You want it good, fast, and cheap? Pick two" still applies. :thumbsup:

And, actually, I don't know that I'd say the image "falls apart" on the HMC40 at +18dB, it just starts to show some noise. But it may be cleaner than the 150, so maybe +18 on the HMC40 about matches +12 on the HMC150. Gack -- too many tests to conduct to answer all this...

I think +12 is perfectly reasonable, and I think people may find +18dB acceptable. But I would be surprised at anyone who found +24 or +34 acceptable for any purpose.
 
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Barry_Green said:
See my post #3 in this thread for updates including some gain pictures.
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I assume that coring was still 0 for this test. Given that we are starting with better resolution than the HMC150, I would expect that more coring could be added before the image gets too soft. So 18dB with some coring might compare pretty well with the HMC150. You mentioned you were looking at the effect of coring on gain, can you do some comparisons with the HMC150 under those conditions. I realize that we have a 3 stop loss of the HMC40 compared to the HMC150, but that is without considering that higher resolution should allow more coring to achieve similar results.
 
LINZAC said:
Hi, Thanks for quick reply. I will repost Q on other section. I bought this camera For my new business, I do need a professional Looking Camera for credibility, And I do plan on learning the functions. Also, I might Expand to shooting paid events, i.e. the weddings.
I guess my q is if I do go professional, based on my earlier post, will the hmc40 be sufficient, or should I go with 150?
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I really like this little HMC40. It's an almost ideal transition from consumer into the professional realm. Only thing so far is that it just isn't that sensitive in low light, you'll need some lights to get the best it can offer. But its best is really pretty good. And it's surprisingly (nay, shockingly) affordable, for a professional camcorder!
 
rich_r said:
I assume that coring was still 0 for this test. Given that we are starting with better resolution than the HMC150, I would expect that more coring could be added before the image gets too soft. So 18dB with some coring might compare pretty well with the HMC150. You mentioned you were looking at the effect of coring on gain, can you do some comparisons with the HMC150 under those conditions. I realize that we have a 3 stop loss of the HMC40 compared to the HMC150, but that is without considering that higher resolution should allow more coring to achieve similar results.
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Look at the latest gain photos to see what happens when you get up to the really high gain -- coring isn't gonna help that.

Yes all my shots were at 0 on the coring, 0 on the detail, 0 on everything, in fact, and HD NORM gamma and MID knee and NORM1 matrix. All in 1080/24p mode.
 
Barry_Green said:
Look at the latest gain photos to see what happens when you get up to the really high gain -- coring isn't gonna help that.
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Ummm... I agree. My question is really, how much coring/gain can you add and still produce an acceptable result? Certainly 24db and higher is pretty ugly. But 18db plus some coring might be acceptable assuming that you are willing to give up some resolution.
 
That's possible. I didn't test that combination. And, again -- an "acceptable result" is a personal decision; someone might find it awful and someone else might think it's great. And, furthermore, it also depends on your destination -- if it was for standard-def DVD, I'd probably say +18dB would look fine. But if it's for big-screen 72" projection or more, +18dB might not be acceptable to some folks.

I guess all I can say is when I think of it I'll try it and see... it's a lot more inconvenient to test an AVCHD camcorder though. With the firewire camcorders I could fire up DV Rack and test to my heart's delight, with immediate feedback on every setting and split-screens and comparisons and monitors and graphs and ... well, with AVCHD, it means shooting it, recording it, bringing it into the computer, etc... not as feedback-efficient. Sure hope they come up with an HDMI capture board solution for Adobe OnLocation soon!
 
rich_r said:
Ummm... I agree. My question is really, how much coring/gain can you add and still produce an acceptable result? Certainly 24db and higher is pretty ugly. But 18db plus some coring might be acceptable assuming that you are willing to give up some resolution.
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Even then, this is only one stop regained (no pun intended) back compared to the 150, still 2-stop difference.
 
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