hmc 150 versus hmc80

HMC150: 500 ISO, handheld, CCD
HMC80: 50 ISO, shoulder-mount, CMOS

HMC80 is about halfway between an HMC40 and an HMC150, both in function and in price. It has the sharper imagers but same low sensitivity of the HMC40, but it has a full-size professional shoulder-mount body, and it has proper XLR audio and all the right buttons and switches that a pro camera has, like the HMC150 does. Proper component outputs with BNC connectors, and a shutter button and speed select buttons like the HMC150 has. Changing shutter speed on the HMC40 is a bit of a tedious chore with the touchscreen, but with the HMC80 it's just like on an HMC150 or HPX500 or HPX370.

The HMC80 is really kind of fantastic. I am a big fan of the HMC40, and the HMC80 takes everything good that the HMC40 has, and repackages it in a proper full-size pro camcorder body, and it's supposed to have a street price of maybe $2500. Only knock against it is the sensitivity. The HMC150 can basically see in the dark as compared to an HMC80 or HMC40. But for $2500 I think it's a screaming deal, especially if your shooting involves daylight. For sports coverage, for daylight news, events, weddings, etc., its daylight picture is going to be as razor-crisp as an EX1 or HPX370, but it's 1/3 the cost and it's a full shoulder-mount rig.

Then, on top of that, the HMC80 also has DV mode. Not a big deal to a lot of us in the HD world, but a *huge* deal for large sections of the world where DV is still king (like India and much of Asia). So you get native widescreen DV, and 4:3, in an instantly-editable drag-and-drop .AVI file that'll work in any NLE. And you also get firewire streaming, both in and out, so you can use Adobe OnLocation for remote monitoring and everything, and you can also use the HMC80 as an in-between on your editing station to output your timeline to a monitor. And you can synchronize timecode with other cameras through the firewire port, so it's great for multi-cam events.

I think the HMC80 is gonna stand the shoulder-mount camera world on its head. It's infinitely more capable than the HMC70 was. It does almost everything that people will need, and for a tiny price. It has some low-price compromises, of course -- only one lens ring, for example, and the viewfinder/LCD is combined, like on an EX3 or XLH1s. But what you get for $2500 is really, really good.

The HMC80 is superior to the HMC40 in many ways, but the HMC40 is just dominant in one category: size. It's soooo tiny, that's a major advantage, especially for a travel cam or an incognito cam. But if you don't need the tiny size, and in fact the larger shoulder-mount form factor is more appropriate for the work you do or for the clients you have, the HMC80 is everything the HMC40 is, and more.

The compelling advantage of the HMC150 over the HMC80, is the much-more-sensitive CCD sensors. No rolling shutter issues ever, and it can get an equivalent-brightness image in 1/10 as much light. But, the HMC150's picture will be a little softer, and a little grainier; the HMC80's and HMC40's image is sharper and smoother. So if you've got a lot of light, the HMC40/80's image is actually better; if you don't have a lot of light the HMC150 is much better.
 
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Thanks, Barry! I was just looking into the HMC80, and your post was most helpful. I've been wanting a shoulder mount camera for a long time - so much better for documentary work. Sorry to hear that the light sensitivity isn't better - how does the HMC80 compare, sensitivity wise, to an HVX or DVX?
 
The HMC80 is about 50 ISO. The HVX is about 320 ISO. So, you'd have to open up the iris on the HMC80 by about 2.5 stops to match the brightness on an HVX.

And the DVX is twice as bright again, so you'd have to open up 3.5 stops to match the brightness of a DVX.
 
low light question

low light question

hi.. this is great info as i am about to purchase 2 new cameras and i am deciding between the HMC80 or HMC 150.

these new cameras would almost exclusively be used for depositions.

I have a HVX200 (wish it was a 200a) and I have decided to keep it. I use this for depositions naturally, but also for inspections or 'activity of daily living' documentaries. So I am covered there.

All of our deposition work is indoors, law offices and doctors offices. I never use light (for depositions) and have to rely on gain in low light conditions.

I am torn between to low light capabilities of the 150 and the not so capable low light ability of the 80

here is a post from another forum:

"3mos vs CCD doesn't really have as much to do with low light performance as does the size of the chips. The HMC40 crams a full 1920x1080 pixels into a 1/4" chip. Those are some very tiny pixels for light gathering. 1/3" 3mos would have been a stop faster and if Panasonic would port whatever technology makes the HPX300 use a 1/3" 3mos that performs like a 1/2" cmos then it would be even better yet. I'm not sure if we will see this anytime soon however. Keep in mind both would dramatically raise the price of the camera.

Also keep in mind that cmos tends to handle gain much better then CCD due to less noise in the chips. A lot of CCD based HD camera start to look bad past 6 DB of gain. Cmos on the other hand like in the HMC40/80 can be pushed well beyond that. Gain should never to a substitute for good lighting but having a cleaner gain does help.

I just did an eye ball comparison with my old trusty Canon XL1 and my new HMC40. I have always known my XL1 wasn't the best in low light but it worked for me for 10 years so I felt if the HMC40 could match the low light I would be in good shape. Well the XL1 at 0 DB matched the HMC40 at 12 DB. Yeah this is darker but 12 DB of the HMC40 is still very clean. Now the Xl1 didn't have very clean gain so when I switch the XL1 to 12 DB which is the max the HMC40 had to be at 24 DB to match. Again if you look at the numbers it seems pretty freaky shooting at 24 DB but it actually looks cleaner then the XL1 at 12 DB. Keep in mind the HMC40 was being viewed in HD as well. Scale that down to SD and the noise would get reduced even more. Not bad at all. I would have loved it to match a bit lower but it is workable and I actually consider it just slightly more sensitive then my XL1 when you factor in how good the noise looks at higher gain levels. When you also factor in that the 1/30th shutter is somewhat usable on the HMC40 compared to the XL1 it makes it even better yet. I hate using 1/30th shutter but it works well in a pinch if you really need a bit of extra light. "

and:

Very good point!! The image on the HMC40 is remarkably noise free even at 24db and my HMC72's are probably much the same at 15db using CCD chips so the 3MOS are a lot less noisy!! I think that Panasonic also has some good technology to avoid excessive video noise. I used to shoot on a PAL version of the DVC20 which had only 1/6" CCD chips and even at 18db the image was resonable (however one must bear in mind that it was only a 720x576 4:3 image)

Sony's single CMOS sensor on the HD1000 camera on the other hand has probably put a lot of people off CMOS as at a high gain the noise is incredible!! Almost like you have filmed thru a pair of ladies pantyhose!!! I was impressed at the noiseless gain on the Panny cameras but as you say, it's always far better to not have such a low light situation. I have learnt at weddings now, when the sun goes down and I'm at the reception, the on-cam LED light goes on...at least it there if I need it and keeps the image crisp and the gain low!!

----

so, if i am reading this right, if I use a HMC80 in low light using gain in HD, by the time I render this into the 4:3 SD DVD my clients want (or MPEG1), low light should not be so critical as to keep searching for a better suited camera? (or the HMC150)?

all but one (made the mistake of a JVC X-2) of my many cameras over 30 years have been pannys but i'd make the change for the perfect camera for the jobs we do

any comment barry or anyone else?

thanks
 
D.R. Gates said:
To call that professional is a reach. These things look and feel like props. Faux versions of real cameras.
Click to expand...
Well, yeah, you do kind of have to keep the price tag in context. It's $2895 MSRP. Compared to the HMC150 or HMC40, it would be a full-size professional shoulder-mount body. Compared to an HPX3700, it would indeed look and feel like a prop.
 
MLV,

I do almost strictly legal videography: depos, ADL and settlement videos, and documenting expert testing and inspections.. Although I've had and used an HMC40 for all those purposes, I much prefer the CCD imaging and lowlight capabilities of the HMC150. Despite that, the 40 has a great form factor for getting into tight spaces and can be configured in a variety of ways for whatever you're shooting - and noise isn't that much of an issue until you push gain past 15 dB. I have, however, found some conference rooms that were so dimly lit that the HMC40 had to strain to obtain an image. Couple that with flash banding (often encountered during expert inspection and testing) and skew issues of CMOS in the 40 and 80, and you can see why I lean towards the HMC150.

As you're aware, the HMC80 is the same electronics as the 40 except in a shoulder mount package. IMHO you may be happier with the HMC150 for legal work than the 80.
 
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Hi mark, thanks for your post. what do you do for backup? as you know, one can lose a client over a lost deposition.

the 80 has firewire and i backup using firestores (HVX200 primary camera) and supercams.

obviously i want to upgrade from the supercams, which have firewire.

i have been thinking of using a sony portable DVD unit (using the component or composite video outs from the 150) but i am not sure of the quality and if that would be a good backup format.

are you confident enough in the SD cards? i backup up the P2 on the HVX (using the firestore) and they are almost fool proof

thoughts?
 
i should add, i use the HVX for inspections and would use the supercams if it required more than one camera.

the cameras i want to buy would be used almost exclusively for depositions.
 
MLVinc said:
i have been thinking of using a sony portable DVD unit (using the component or composite video outs from the 150) but i am not sure of the quality and if that would be a good backup format.

are you confident enough in the SD cards? i backup up the P2 on the HVX (using the firestore) and they are almost fool proof

thoughts?
Click to expand...
I use a Sony DVD recorder for backup when recording depos. As for cards, I've yet to encounter problems with Sandisk Extreme III (class 6) or the newer Extreme (class 10) cards. Yes, they're a bit more expensive than some of the other cards on the market, but I don't have the confidence in those that I do in the Sandisk Extreme cards.

I just finished migrating from PD170s with Firestore units to the HMC150. The PD170 will stay on the shelf for a while until I'm sure all the out of town reporting firms I work with no longer request MiniDV. The list is short now, but you never know. HTH.
 
this is helping in my camera selection decision..

i am leaning hard in the HMC150 direction (need 2) and going either w/o backup or, maybe for awhile at least until we feel comfortable, backing up with DVD...mind telling me which Sony you're using?

we will use the best cards we can find

thanks!
 
much appreciated mark

looks more and more like we will acquire two HMC150's and use the Sony DVD recorder for backup

thanks again
 
Another caveat for the 150: if you're one of the zillions of shooters looking to upgrade from a DVX (or just missing the "it just works" feel of the DVX) the 150 is really like "so where ya been buddy??". Very well thought-out package, and if you put in a lot of DVX miles you'll very quickly get to that "not thinking, just shooting" mindset. Throwing in the solid state workflow is icing on the cake - no, it's actually like a cake made of icing.

Your response to AVCHD files will depend upon your existing editing gear; FCP is working fine for me, going to ProRes and log & transfer sure beats log & capture (tape-based). Others aren't as happy with it.
 
One problem I've noticed when researching all of these cameras, is that the HMC150 and the HMC40 do not have firewire out! This leaves only the composite out for your backup. I am in legal video also, and a backup recording of a depo (and most everything else legal) is an absolute necessity. The backup unit is usually a DVD recorder these days. A firewire DV output would be the best choice for that.

The composite might be acceptable, unless it works like the composite output on my HPX170. That camera does not output the time/date stamp. Unless, that is, you want to output everything else in your viewfinder display: battery level, audio levels, record light, etc.

Does anyone know if the composite output on the HMC's can include the time/date stamp? Without the viewfinder items, that is?
 
HMC 80 Great Legal Camera...Plus

HMC 80 Great Legal Camera...Plus

I do a lot of legal work, mostly depositions and I can't imagine what would happen if you lost testimony from a multi million dollar case (I haven't in 15 years of legal work). I may be a little paranoid but this is how I shoot depos and the HMC80 works perfectly for this.

I record on SDHC card in the camera (32GB = 2 hours). I use the composite out to a Panasonic DVD recorder (and yes it does transfer the TimeDate Stamp if it is set to on). I also record via the firewire out to my laptop and portable HD with Adobe OnLocation. It is a lot of setup but I am covered and if the client wants editing the video is already on my computer in .avi form.

In the past I used this setup with the AG DVC 60 with DV tape in the camera having to stop and change tape every hour. With the HMC80 and 32GB SDHC cards I only need to stop every 2 hours which is the same time limit with recorded DVDs in SP mode.

If you are considering the pros and cons of these cameras for your use, The HMC Book offered by Barry is a comprehensive side by side guide for the HMC 150, 80 and 40. It also is loaded with basic and advanced HMC camera operation techniques.
 
Believe it or not... I had a client who needed a camera original VHS deposition last month because the courthouse didn't have a DVD player. They had to have all the other DVD etc. testimony transfered to VHS before the court would accept it!
I had to dust off the VHS cam and dig out some VHS stock!
 
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