Hey come on guys, those highlights are so far beyond the range of almost any camera that I think you should wait until something is done in a more controlled way before leaping to conclusions. It they are actually clipping with a less than gentle transition it's probably just a question of refining the countless variables provided both in-camera and in post. Pretty difficult to speculate on something in a generalized way at this point. It seems to me the clip of the Japanese gentlemen was to see how much those patterns in the clothes would create artifacts, and was less about finding the perfect gamma curves.
Highlight Clipping Seems to be the Main Concern
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PaPa
Major Contributor
here are some very minor and rough examples of adding a little curve. The question comes down to which profile setting is best for skin tones regardless of clipping since it can be dealt with, to some extent, in post...
Notice his jawline
notice her hat
notice her forehead
Notice his jawline
notice her hat
notice her forehead
Homunculus
Carbonite Member
papa all those shots look identical to me. identically blown out
Homunculus
Carbonite Member
ok I see what you're saying I peered in real close to the monitor. Yes it's a tiny barely distinguishable bit more gentle in the roll off. I hope this isn't the big difference everyone is talking about with adjusting curves. If that's the only difference you get when switching off cine-D settings, then AF100 may flat out have a major dynamic range problem because that didn't help out those highlights whatsoever
Duke M.
Veteran
No. That's a tiny change in post. In camera there should be enough adjustments to completely eliminate the problem. It will probably be a combination of factors that does it. I can imagine setting zebras to 90% and not letting zebras appear. Adjusting the gamma so that highlights never exceed 100% and giving it a nice curve to smooth the onset of the highlights.
Barry already said this camera has all the usual adjustments similar to a 170. IMHO this is a non-issue unless you have no idea how to handle the camera. Which means that the first month the camera is out everyone will whine about clipping, and after that (as they learn the camera) the issue will go away for everyone but neophytes.
Barry already said this camera has all the usual adjustments similar to a 170. IMHO this is a non-issue unless you have no idea how to handle the camera. Which means that the first month the camera is out everyone will whine about clipping, and after that (as they learn the camera) the issue will go away for everyone but neophytes.
Homunculus
Carbonite Member
the problem is that all of these settings are known. cine-d, etc. panasonic flew out 5 of the top dslr film makers on earth and EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. of their footage was clipped. you're telling me none of these top guys were able to figure this out? Why did all their footage badly clip?
Dino
Veteran
Just using DRS would be an easy way to control highlights, at the expense of added noise due to the mid-black expansion. I find DRS 1 and 2 to be helpful in run and gun, high contrast situations where I know footage won't be graded on my HPX2700. DRS 3 affects fleshtones negatively in my 2700. I've never been able to get my HPX170 to handle highlights anything like my 2700, not surprisingly, because DRS can't be used in 24 and 30P. DRS is Film-Rec for highlight control, but dynamically adding mid-black stretch as well. Film-Rec buys up to 30 IRE of highlight range, albeit compressing mid-tones and mid-blacks some. I believe that if any of the footage shot in Japan had used DRS, we would have seen better highlight handling, especially if the DRS was 600% dynamic range, like P2 Varicams.
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LoganMackay
Well-known member
Barry has already stated that cine-d is not really meant for harsh outdoor lighting, it is meant for controlled sets. That is how.
PaPa
Major Contributor
That's all i was getting at. The problem for me wasn't so much the blown out hilights, just look at the shooting conditions. No control at all, just run and gun, they didin't know the optimal settings and this was their first run with a "pre production" unit. So this is to be expected. What i mearly wanted to show was a way to minimize the "in your face" blowout so that's its not as distracting. I think I achieved what I was demonstrating.
The question that remains to be seen is really how the different gamma curves affect the skin tone. Be it with cineD or another one. that will be when testing commences and when these cameras get in our hands.
All this to say, with the uncontrolled settings and blowouts, i can sleep safe knowing that i can make them appear better with a little rolloff curve in post. that's all this was for.
Duke M.
Veteran
a) No one operates their camera perfectly the first, second or third time out. Its going to take a month to learn this camera.
b) Cine-D is known to cause this issue.
c) The HMC150 and 170 (in fact most video cameras) have a similar 'issue' and people now have settings that completely avoid it.
d) At this price point no camera is going to have the hardware for increased dynamic range, so it becomes a software issue, where it is already resolved with the settings. Which is how its done on every prosumer cam on the market.
e) I think the original hype and hysteria over the camera has led some fans to put Barry, Philip and the camera up on pedestals. They are people that makes mistakes in order to learn, just like we all make mistakes and learn. Plus its prosumer camera, and Panny's not promising Red's HDRx.
IMHO Its an education issue, not a camera issue.
PaPa
Major Contributor
And on a side note, just to be fair, i don't think any one of them would have had the time to shoot, take a look at their footage and then shoot again. Pretty sure they just shot, popped it in the editor, uploaded.
Dino
Veteran
This is the problem with any aggressive knee or gamma setting, it controls highlights, but can also compress fleshtones to the point of ruining them. This is why I like to run skintones at 60-65 IRE, especially when using Film-Rec gamma--I don't have to worry about compression of the mid-tones. My HPX170 doesn't allow the flexibility with knee and slope settings that I'm used to with 2/3" higher-end cameras, nor does it have the latitude, of course.
kylekmd
Well-known member
I agree completely.
The first week we get our hands on this cam--early JANUARY for many of us--we'll have it figured out. The recommendations from the big boys will start rolling in at that time, we'll implement them with or without a little tweaking... and then beautiful sample footage/Shorts will be posted and this pre-delivery turmoil will be all but a memory.
pathfinder
Well-known member
Reading from all the positive and negative comments of the AF100, my conclusion is that we are having an anxiety attack. Anticitpation and expections can lead to that. Once the delivery has come, people get a chance to tear open that UPS box and have a chance to put that AF100 to the test, the heartbeat will slow down and relaxation will settle in again... until the next better filmmaking gadget comes along. Such is the cycle of technology. But, I will not be complaining because I for one want the best and top of the line gear, but I don't have that many Benjamin Franklins to back me up... I go with what I can afford with the gear that I felt is the best at the moment for my need. It will be silly to expect something the caliber of a RED when all one can afford is something hardly the price of a DSLR. 
Can't wait.
Can't wait.
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Reading from all the positive and negative comments of the AF100, my conclusion is that we are having an anxiety attack. Anticitpation and expections can lead to that. Once the delivery has come, people get a chance to tear open that UPS box and have a chance to put that AF100 to the test, the heartbeat will slow down and relaxation will settle in again... until the next better filmmaking gadget comes along. Such is the cycle of technology. But, I will not be complaining because I for one want the best and top of the line gear, but I don't have that many Benjamin Franklins to back me up... I go with what I can afford with the gear that I felt is the best at the moment for my need. It will be silly to expect something the caliber of a RED when all one can afford is something hardly the price of a DSLR.
Well said. Everything is conjecture right now. I'm not ordering one yet until 1) I have the funds and 2) I hear the REAL reports from experienced users with production units. My "guess" is this camera will be amazing in the hands of people that know how to use it. And then within 6 months to a year the next "best camera for the money" will show up and we'll all go through the same thing again. Who knows, maybe Red will finally ship something new and great...
powervideo
Well-known member
No tips for the skin shots really. The GH1 is hard to assess correct exposure in the field, which is where the AF100 will be so much better. Tess was filmed on an overcast day with quite a bright BG on Zeiss Contax 50mm and 85mm lenses. I used quite flat settings but that very flatness gave me some decent latitude to grade in post. But usually I like it to look just right out of the camera without the need for post manipulation. My main reason for posting the footage was to show how well the GH1 handles highlights.
Thomas Church
Active member
I have to say I was locked on buying an AF100, but now between rumors of RED coming out with Scarlet sooner and a possible successor to the 5D, I'm gonna wait a bit and see how the final build is reviewed.
powervideo
Well-known member
I wouldn't be holding your breath for the Scarlet or the 5D MkIII. Those cameras are a way off. You could buy an AF100 or GH2 (next month) or a 5DMkII or GH1 this month and start shooting.
Duke M.
Veteran
Red is shipping Epics to test in New Zealand and Austrailia on a shoot, not the Scarlet. Internally the Epic is still in development despite the announcement. Haven't you noticed that Red makes an announcement whenever a new camera comes out that even 'might' compete with them? Doesn't that make you wonder about the timing of that announcement and maybe trying to steal some thunder from the AF100, just like they did with the 5D and 7D?
When the Epic testing is done, and the camera is revised, the overheating is solved, then some more will be shipped to certain current Red owners (the Toto program). When that is done and the camera is revised again, Red will sell to other current Red owners.
After that the scarlet version will need to be revised and tested. Yes, maybe 75% will be the same as the Epic, but 25% won't. So another round of testing and revising. Maybe 2 rounds.
If you say that Red isn't that way and they said it would be earlier, I only point you to their past history of announcements and delays. A camera is a complex device and they are trying to be innovative. For the general public, you're probably looking at mid 2012 for a Scarlet fixed. For a Scarlet S35, longer. Maybe 2013.
But there is nothing wrong with seeing how the AF100 tests out. Many people will do that. Since cameras often go through a 3 year cycle a lot of people will buy and AF100 now and maybe a scarlet in 2013.
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