Help me decide

B

barel33

Member
Can't decide what camera to buy.
I need a camera for ENG and cant decide between hpx500 and EX3.
I don't do extensive post. I need fast turnaround and easy operation.
I travel a lot so weight and size is a factor. If I decide to go with EX3 I will
by a shoulder mount for it. Most of my work right now is in SD, but eventualy
everybody will go HD. I really like the viewfinder and histogram option in EX3,
and maybe the resolution in SD will be better. This is not a question of budget.
I read an article by BBC saying that HPX has low resolution for PAL in dvcpro modes.
So please help, cause I need to invest in a system very soon.:dankk2:
 
I have both (well, EX-1) and if SD is in the picture for a while then the HPX-500 is a great choice.

But, It will cost you more for the HPX-500 as you need to buy a broadcast lens.

If shoulder mounted filming is important, I would never want to use the EX-3 for this purpose. The HPX-500 is very light and a joy to operate on the shoulder.

What I use is a Nano Flash with the HPX-500 and the images are imho, improved over the DVCProHD images as they are now full raster and a higher long GOP bitrate.

This unit is also used with the EX-1 for better aquisition.

The images out of these two cameras are both wonderful.

You can't go wrong.

It really comes down to ergonomics and price.

The HPX-500 in my view is a more professional tool with better DOF choices and better audio.

Good Luck!
 
I have HPX500. Do BBC people not like HPX500 in PAL SD?
I worked few weeks ago on EX3. EX3 has much more better LCD-viewfinder. You can see on it a big audio level sign. HPX500 has small one and my sound engineer does not like it... To make precision focus is better with EX3. VF of HPX500 is very low resolution. When I worked without tripod: EX3 is very bad to make it, HPX500 - excellent! Focus in red on EX3 is useless for me, diagram on HPX also... After working with EX3 I was happy I have HPX500!
 
Ok, let me first qualify this by saying I have no first hand experience with either camera, but know the hvx200/hpx170 + ex1 well.

I've seen footage from the HPX500, and have to say the dynamic range was disappointing. Now this was from a few samples and they may not have been exposed or programed (scene file) properly. That said, like most of the panny cameras, the color science is amazing. It also has that filmic mojo, that I hope someday we'll understand :)

The EX1 from what I've seen has better dynamic range, but is flatter and more heavily compressed. (same for EX3.) DVCPRO HD hold up better in post in my experience, but not by NEARLY as much as you'd think. To put a number to it, I'd say you can push 80 to 85% as hard as DVCPRO HD which is impressive for a 35/mbit codec.

Based on what I've seen, between the HPX500 and the EX1/EX3, I'd go with the EX1/3. This is due to image alone. I'd miss the color from the panny by a lot, but with enough tweaking I think you could get it close. It defies logic, but I have an HMC150, and the latitude and and color look better than the samples from the HPX500. That said, since CMOS is obviously not a deal breaker for you, maybe look at the HPX300. THAT produces some amazing images, and looks better to my eye than the HPX500. It also has the AVC-I codec which is master quality and comparable to HDCAM SR. That's a huge advantage if the 1/3" sensors aren't a deal breaker. And in terms of DOF, you've got enough rez and sensitivity you could do an adapter OR, just shoot wide open at much as possible.

(I've never had problems getting acceptable DOF from 1/3" sensors. 1/4" is a different story.)

This opinion does not take ergonomics or usability into account at all. Image ONLY!
 
I think both cameras need to be setup to get the best out of them.

About the HMC-150, this camera is a great value and can work as b-roll for the HPX-500. After all is has the same chipset as the HPX-170.

I would disagree about the dynamic range as I much prefer the HPX-500. But the HPX-500 often will have a much better lens than the HMC-150.
 
arrestthisman said:
The EX1 from what I've seen has better dynamic range, but is flatter and more heavily compressed. (same for EX3.) DVCPRO HD hold up better in post in my experience, but not by NEARLY as much as you'd think. To put a number to it, I'd say you can push 80 to 85% as hard as DVCPRO HD which is impressive for a 35/mbit codec.
Click to expand...

1/2" vs. 2/3" when it comes to dynamic range the 2/3" are better, both in terms of real world experience of using the EX1 and HPX500 and in theory. Also the 2/3" will make mincemeat of 1/2" in low light...which I would see as very important for ENG.

For ENG I would not use EX1 due to it's CMOS sensor and rolling shutter. You often shoot alongside stills photographer fireing of their flashes which is a pain with the rolling shutter of the EX's. Also the ergonomics for long days with the EX cameras is a disaster, adding shouldermounts I would only find in the way of run and gun shooting. Light and audio, need to run a powerful light, the EX's becomes a nightmare with a heavy brick to run a 30-50w light. The 500 also has 4 xlr inputs, although it lacks slot in wireless receiver, the ability to add more mics than EX1 i see as a huge advantage for ENG use.

Ofcourse the 500 has it's problems to, but this is kind of the compromise you have to accept to get 2/3" HD on a budget.

The VF are not very good, there is a better SD option available. But HD VF is not an option on the 500. The LCD screen also ain't to good to be of much use in bright light.

Also the chips are sd, not hd, so the 500 lacks some detail in large overlooking pictures. I think the low resolution will have some larger networks and public broadcasters considering the Hpx2100 as a ENG camera over the 500.

And finally you will need a broadcast lens, the price of a 500 system will be higher than a EX3.
 
I have zero usage of the EX3 so, I can't state any points on that camera but lots of shoots on the HPX500. So...here are a few opinions from my experiences.

1. Shines when it comes to low light because of its 2/3" chips.
2. True ENG style camera, not like the EX3 which you ended up adding lots of accessories to get to the point of the 500. Well balanced on the shoulder. Add a handgrip and your shoulder mount shoots are ever better. I got dual handgrips on mind and it performs well on the shoulder.
3. Good DOF
4. Focus is no problem for me although it would be nice if the 500 has a better VF and good on-board lcd monitor.
5. Great color resolution and dynamic range.

6. The photog big boys at your local TV stations will turn their heads and leave you some room to join them on the shooting floor....:-) irrelavent but a plus and it wouldn't hurt not to get ignored by the big boys with $50,000 cameras next to you...although, now a days, lots of TV stations have cheaper cameras than yours. :)

That's my two Abe Lincoln pennies.
 
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same disussion all over again...

1. it's two different cameras in two different price categories once you count in proper lens for hpx500
2. 2/3' ccd is always better than 1/2 cmos
3. dvcpro hd is 100mbits comparing to sony 35mbit long gop mpeg.

I had possibility to work with ex1, which is practically the same as ex3, and i own hpx500. there is no way i would change my hpx for ex1/ex3. why?
1. more than enough sharpness and resolution, sharper is not better, but colors are way much more beautiful on panny.
2. proper lens selection for rent, purchase, and once you get one, you can use it for a loooong time and there is a market for 2/3 'lenses, not like 1/2 ..
3. proper shoulder mount camera, can't imagine myself working whole day with kind of
pseudo shoulder post...

and agree with pathfinder, attitude is important! big camera works always for people and clients!
 
Good points there, Tomas. As someone who has shot with both the EX1 and HPX500, they're both great cameras. But personally, if the OP does indeed travel extensively, I'm not sure the 500 is the right choice. Traveling with that (in my experience) on planes (and boats) can be a hassle, to say the least.

Also, as nice as the colors (read "panny mojo") are, with five minutes of tweaking it's relatively easy to match the EX cameras to the HPX cameras. I know because I've just had to do it.

On the 2/3" vs. 1/2" discussion, no doubt that the HPX will offer better lens options and better low-light performance. But keep in mind that that HPX chips use spatial-offset technology to achieve HD, while the EX cameras are full-raster chips. This has been discussed extensively here, so re-hashing it is not the point, only to point out that chip size does not tell the full story. The best thing the OP can do in this case is rent (or borrow) both cameras, or all cameras he's considering, and find the picture that he likes best.

I'd push the OP more towards the HPX300 than the 500. But even then, if size is a factor, the EX1/3 might be a better choice. Yes, the ergonomics on the EX1 are not the greatest, but there are so many quality shoulder-mount options out there, it's easy to find one that works.

And as for codec performance, as I mentioned in the OP's other thread, I'd add the Nano Flash to the EX cameras for sure. The 100mbps XDCAM 422 codec of the Nano is stunnigly clean and stands up to extensive color-correction, if needed.

The good thing for the OP is that there are so many options at so many price points that something will fit the bill. It's good to have choices.
 
stephenmick said:
And as for codec performance, as I mentioned in the OP's other thread, I'd add the Nano Flash to the EX cameras for sure. The 100mbps XDCAM 422 codec of the Nano is stunnigly clean and stands up to extensive color-correction, if needed.
Click to expand...

I would suggest to anybody buying an HPX-500 new to do the same with the Nano.

It improves the HPX camera more than it does the EX series cameras due to the full raster codec.

Plus I see it as a better investment than the P2 or SxS cards as you can use it with whatever camera you have infront of you, even when you rent something high dollar.
 
I meant to ask you about that before, Bassman. I know the codec performance on the Nano is a real improvement over the EX1, but is there really that big an improvement on the HPX500?

I'd love to see a sample shot with the HPX500 and Nano Flash, if you have something to share.
 
stephenmick said:
Good points there, Tomas. As someone who has shot with both the EX1 and HPX500, they're both great cameras. But personally, if the OP does indeed travel extensively, I'm not sure the 500 is the right choice. Traveling with that (in my experience) on planes (and boats) can be a hassle, to say the least.
Click to expand...
I can't see any trouble travelling with the 500, a EX1/3 will be more bulky with a shouldermount rig. And as far as my interpretation of travelling in the US...are you likely to be allowed to take a shouldermount rig on as carry on luggage?

stephenmick said:
And as for codec performance, as I mentioned in the OP's other thread, I'd add the Nano Flash to the EX cameras for sure. The 100mbps XDCAM 422 codec of the Nano is stunnigly clean and stands up to extensive color-correction, if needed.
Click to expand...
But on a ENG assignment...the last thing you need is to worry about an external recorder. There will also be a problem with the EX's if clients only accept SD and if time is of the essence there might not be time to rough cut stuff that require delivery in SD.

I'm not ruling out the EX1/3, but for ENG I think a proper shouldermount or small handheld(VJ..) camera are the way to go, not in the middle.
 
That depends on the shoulder-mount. I never had an issue traveling with my DVMultiRig Pro, and don't expect I ever would.

As for delivery requirements, if SD is the driving factor, then sure, the HPX500 might be the better choice. But even then, I'd look at the HPX300 as well.

And on the Nano Flash, one of the great things about it is that it's a redundant system, recording on both the internal SxS (EX1/3) and on the CF cards in the Nano. No worries there, just an immediate backup copy of the footage.
 
stephenmick said:
I meant to ask you about that before, Bassman. I know the codec performance on the Nano is a real improvement over the EX1, but is there really that big an improvement on the HPX500?

I'd love to see a sample shot with the HPX500 and Nano Flash, if you have something to share.
Click to expand...

To be honest, I don't own any P2 so the only shooting I have done with DVCPor HD has been tethered to a laptop for testing a while ago.

The area of improvement with the Nano is the amount of detail that shows up in the recorded image. To put it in laymans terms it looks more "HD". The pixel shifted approach works well but the DVCProHD codec sort of takes resolution away by not being full raster. A big reason the AVC-Intra looks so good in comparison, it is full raster.

About the Nano and ENG. This thing is small and I have it mounted on the Anton Bauer plate, so it is like it does not exist.

The only bother is that you do not get viewfinder feedback regarding recording, but CD has a remote tally light you can put on your camera.

The 35mb Mpeg-2 codec is no slouch. Sony is not stupid. 35mb is about at the visual breaking point, but just above. There is plenty of information in the image.

I just am not a fan of proprietary, fixed period in time products like P2 or SxS. They are the best the company can offer at that time and often get passed by with technology. Then when you want to sell them they are worth nothing in the marketplace. Not a good investment imho.
 
Thank you all for your input. More details:

Right now I'm using both a DSR450 and DVX100. My work is one man band and let me tell you
in 76% of the time DVX is good enough. I do travel international flights. I use an lpmicropro
as on camera. We do interviews and 3min stories most of the time and have at least 3h for edit circle.
The workflow includes capturing, editing DV, exporting to Mpeg and ftping to server.
There are some docies coming.
As I see it, I have to transcode any way, so it doesn't make that big a difference.
Smaller camera gives me those more personal shots and, lets face it, it is easier to carry (+ tripod and stuff). Low light - most of the time DVX was sufficient. I do know the difference between it and DSR, but HPX is less sensitive. Another thing - less weight means I can carry more lights. I DO like the HPX, but is it worth it? Nano flash is probably not for me as more connections make me nervous. I don't do much grading or blue screen. I need a simple and manageable workflow. I don't do prolonged takes on the shoulder and I can hold the EX 2/3 through the lens steady with no shoulder mount, but really, HPX is nicer on the shoulder,
I tried them in the rental, didn't took them out for real job though.
I do work in conflict areas occasionally, not the safest places
 
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barel33 said:
Thank you all for your input. More details:

Right now I'm using both a DSR450 and DVX100. My work is one man band and let me tell you
in 76% of the time DVX is good enough. I do travel international flights. I use an lpmicropro
as on camera. We do interviews and 3min stories most of the time and have at least 3h for edit circle.
The workflow includes capturing, editing DV, exporting to Mpeg and ftping to server.
There are some docies coming.
As I see it, I have to transcode any way, so it doesn't make that big a difference.
Smaller camera gives me those more personal shots and, lets face it, it is easier to carry (+ tripod and stuff). Low light - most of the time DVX was sufficient. I do know the difference between it and DSR, but HPX is less sensitive. Another thing - less weight means I can carry more lights. I DO like the HPX, but is it worth it? Nano flash is probably not for me as more connections make me nervous. I don't do much grading or blue screen. I need a simple and manageable workflow. I don't do prolonged takes on the shoulder and I can hold the EX 2/3 through the lens steady with no shoulder mount, but really, HPX is nicer on the shoulder,
I tried them in the rental, didn't took them out for real job though.
I do work in conflict areas occasionally, not the safest places - Georgia, Palestine, Bosnia...
Click to expand...


Sounds like you already know what you want. Go for what works best for you.
 
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