FS7: HDR another buzzword for 2017 TV Marketing ?

Nobody says the HDR aquisition is not necessary, better pixels are good and are needed. Have been needed for a long time with the megapixel race going on for a few years. ( i guess "HDR" is a sexier , better selling term than "better pixels") About time to catch up with the quality of these pixels. What I, and I presume Doug are saying is that the final result for the viewer is not so compelling. Whether that is actually "fake" HDR aquisition, the post crushing the DR, compression, storage, playback, display contributing to the final result I don't know. Probably all of the above.... Typically the manufacturers have the "buzzword stickers " (3D, 240Hz and yes , HDR) printed and stick them on before the tech is really ready to make the difference in the viewer experience. Hence the end results at trade shows (can't talk about home viewing because I do not own HDR TV just like I skipped the 3D craze as per the 1960s and 1970 failures). Here is to hoping the manufacturers won't get discouraged with the slow start in sales and develop this tech to its max potential . Or maybe next year there will be another buzzword , I see "8K" looming from a distance ;-)
 
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Doug Jensen said:
Every side by side demonstration I have ever seen of HDR vs. SDR has always been with the SDR looking so awful that I would never accept it. I want to see a demonstration where SDR looks fantastic, and HDR takes it to a new level.
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A couple of weeks ago I wandered into a local BestBuy which had 40 4K TVs from 55 inch to 75 inch on display, with many of the SDR and HDR TVs playing the same 8-bit content, and it was very obvious that the HDR sets were significantly better, even when showing 8-bit content. The SDR sets looked pretty good, until you saw the same content on a HDR set. The HDR color and brightness was a big step up from the SDR sets, and convinced me that my next set is definitely going to be HDR.
 
TheDingo said:
A couple of weeks ago I wandered into a local BestBuy which had 40 4K TVs from 55 inch to 75 inch on display, with many of the SDR and HDR TVs playing the same 8-bit content, and it was very obvious that the HDR sets were significantly better, even when showing 8-bit content. The SDR sets looked pretty good, until you saw the same content on a HDR set. The HDR color and brightness was a big step up from the SDR sets, and convinced me that my next set is definitely going to be HDR.
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I couldn't have said it better myself:
8 bit content is considered HDR because the saturation and brightness is cranked up on the display. I though we were professionals here...
HDR content has to, most certainly , be processed in 12 bits all the way through the final rendering. That "12 bit" content displayed on a TRUE 10 bit display. Recipe for a proper HDR. Sorry 8 bit interpolated (faked) into 10 bit display won't cut it. Just set your (8 bit) TV set to "vivid" and save a lot of money ....;-)
 
optitek said:
Nobody says the HDR aquisition is not necessary, better pixels are good and are needed. Have been needed for a long time with the megapixel race going on for a few years. ( i guess "HDR" is a sexier , better selling term than "better pixels") About time to catch up with the quality of these pixels. What I, and I presume Doug are saying is that the final result for the viewer is not so compelling. Whether that is actually "fake" HDR aquisition, the post crushing the DR, compression, storage, playback, display contributing to the final result I don't know. Probably all of the above.... Typically the manufacturers have the "buzzword stickers " (3D, 240Hz and yes , HDR) printed and stick them on before the tech is really ready to make the difference in the viewer experience. Hence the end results at trade shows (can't talk about home viewing because I do not own HDR TV just like I skipped the 3D craze as per the 1960s and 1970 failures). Here is to hoping the manufacturers won't get discouraged with the slow start in sales and develop this tech to its max potential . Or maybe next year there will be another buzzword , I see "8K" looming from a distance ;-)
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You're certainly right about fake HDR. It's pretty easy to understand the temptation because the process of HDR10 borders on onerous and Dolby Vision is out of reach for nearly all but cinema. That's the opportunity that HLG presents. Let's get this out of the way, it's not as exciting as HDR10 or DV because it's mere scene referred gamma, not display referred. But that's exactly the complication with HDR10 and DV; that on top of the grading differences you have to make peace with metadata. That has been a barrier in so many ways, creation, broadcast, distribution, tone mapping because OLED and LED are vastly different, stuff we don't worry much about with conventional gammas, log gammas and hybrid log gammas. But ST.2084, the EOTF that maps tones to specific levels of color volume is conceptually upside down, and basically non adjustable by the viewer. You can force director's intent with it in theory, but not really because the director's intent was for you to go to the cinema and watch the product in the dark controlled setting. HLG on the other hand is distribution friendly, doesn't require metadata, viewing brightness and gamma remain adjustable so we can choose to tweak how it looks to suit our situation, bright room viewing or darkened home theater. And more importantly, it removes some of the barriers facing owner operators from creating more quality HDR content for us all.
 
optitek said:
I couldn't have said it better myself:
Sorry 8 bit interpolated (faked) into 10 bit display won't cut it. Just set your (8 bit) TV set to "vivid" and save a lot of money ....;-)
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I might be misunderstanding you here, but HDR10 is 10 bit delivery, that's why it requires HDMI 2.0a for a UHD Blu-ray HDR encoding. Dolby Vision is 12 bit delivered but within an 8-bit pipeline maintaining compatibility with an older HDMI spec, a point that should be moot by now. You can answer this for me, but if bit rate is /MBps then bandwidth would seem to be reduced 50% when sending 12 bit words through an 8 bit pipeline, but that's above my pay grade. Neither HDR10 nor DV are interpolated to 8 bits. Perhaps you are saying the display panel itself is dithering or interpolating to 8 bits, that could be. It's certainly not new, may not be true in all cases, an internal operational detail seldom revealed.
 
That's why what only counts is the final product. And it is ....weak- IMO of course. If you see a big enough difference to make the switch... by all means. Unfortunately the recent history tells us that the general public wants more, and votes with their wallets. They make it or break it. They broke the 3D (glasses or no glasses that's irrelevant) IMO if HDR remains on current level they will break it too. The manufacturers will move on to the next buzz- 8K or such. That's how opportunities are missed...
 
optitek said:
Just set your (8 bit) TV set to "vivid" and save a lot of money ....;-)
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From what I saw with my own eyes, SDR sets will never look as good as HDR sets, even when displaying 8-bit content. The SDR set can't get bright enough and pumping up the SDR saturation does not give you the color gradation that HDR sets have. Configuring SDR sets as you suggest will give them a "lipstick on a pig" look compared to the HDR sets.
 
Hi Tom, dear Friend - you posts are rare, but always interesting! When we discussed some aspects of HDR10 grading and HEVC encoding quite a time ago, you never mentioned the success of your trailer and later your YT HDR clip - you're a modest person :) But please, could you share with us some links to them? I'd love to watch your work, even if only on my SUHD TV!

BTW, there is another guy here in Poland who (sorry for bragging) used a little technical help from me (strictly speaking, my HDR10-related posts on the Resolve BMD Forum) learning to create his own HDR content; the difference between myself and Darek (that's his first name) is that while my own production is really nothing interesting to other people - his films are breath-taking (underwater world - he's been an underwater shooter for many, many years before his first HDR creation). Check for yourself here:

https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=65840&sid=a824e56bbb5324173b4cf3662d28c76b

Of course make sure you're watching the HDR10 version of his movie on the right equipment!

Piotr
 
moldcad said:
Hi Tom, dear Friend - you posts are rare, but always interesting! When we discussed some aspects of HDR10 grading and HEVC encoding quite a time ago, you never mentioned the success of your trailer and later your YT HDR clip - you're a modest person :) But please, could you share with us some links to them? I'd love to watch your work, even if only on my SUHD TV!

BTW, there is another guy here in Poland who (sorry for bragging) used a little technical help from me (strictly speaking, my HDR10-related posts on the Resolve BMD Forum) learning to create his own HDR content; the difference between myself and Darek (that's his first name) is that while my own production is really nothing interesting to other people - his films are breath-taking (underwater world - he's been an underwater shooter for many, many years before his first HDR creation). Check for yourself here:

https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=65840&sid=a824e56bbb5324173b4cf3662d28c76b

Of course make sure you're watching the HDR10 version of his movie on the right equipment!

Piotr
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Here are a few. The first is a trailer for the documentary "Into The Cave of Wonders." It plays in HDR on YouTube if you have the Chromecast Ultra Dongle or a supporting Samsung SUHD television 2016 or later running the latest firmware. If you don't have HDR, it plays very nice in SDR as well. I provided YouTube with a Lut that converts the HDR10 grade to SDR. Their servers will automatically choose the right version for you, HDR or SDR. The source footage is time lapse sequences from a Canon 5D by Rafael Asquith. Other footage not included on the trailer was shot with the Red Dragon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfzSHCunpps

The next link is commentary from a YouTube blogger about the HDR demo clip that "made him get out his wallet and buy an HDR television." Colorwise it looks somewhat wonky because he pointed his camera at a television to shoot the clip. In the follow up pages he had also managed to get a copy of the *original* Sony demo playing at the BestBuy and posted THAT on YouTube. The license holder or YouTube made him take it down.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-h...tles-will-updated-often-597.html#post54620728 loads at the top of the page, post #17889


Following is a download link to a 3 minute demo I shot with the F55, most scenes have a fair number of 1000 nit specular highlights but is not overly processed, looks natural in HDR or SDR. See if you can spot them. Top post on the page #13825 contains the download link to the 4k HDR10 file that plays from a usb flash drive. You'll need an HDR compatible television for this, Or you can see the same clip in 4k HDR from YouTube with this link https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=8&v=FFaBMUiNTYE, or in SDR depending on your supporting equipment.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-h...tles-will-updated-often-461.html#post51384265 <-- Download link, loads at top of the page, post #13825
 
moldcad said:
BTW, there is another guy here in Poland who (sorry for bragging) used a little technical help from me (strictly speaking, my HDR10-related posts on the Resolve BMD Forum) learning to create his own HDR content; the difference between myself and Darek (that's his first name) is that while my own production is really nothing interesting to other people - his films are breath-taking (underwater world - he's been an underwater shooter for many, many years before his first HDR creation). Check for yourself here:

https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=65840&sid=a824e56bbb5324173b4cf3662d28c76b

Piotr
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So there you go, Netflix, Amazon, YouTube, BBC and now Discovery. YUP! Looks like HDR is DEAD! :violin::grin::2vrolijk_08:
 
Tom Roper said:
So there you go, Netflix, Amazon, YouTube, BBC and now Discovery. YUP! Looks like HDR is DEAD! :violin::grin::2vrolijk_08:
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Yes let me find the same exact post you made about 3D 5 years ago ;-)
(I don't really know if you did- it just seems like a dejavu from that period)
BTW I don't want it to die, on the contrary, just draw from recent experience that it (the term)will be overused, abused, diluted, faked and, consequently rejected, ridiculed, mocked, spit out, forgotten...
 
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I was adamant that 3D would fail since it had about 60 years to catch on after 1953's 3D "House of Wax." At least something good came of it, we got Charles Buchinsky.
 
I watch that video - I don't see much HDR... but then, I'm using my PC to drive this 55" TV via HDMI.
does PC decode Youtube HDR VP9 correctly? is there a HDR test screen video that we can calibrate to?
 
The link to Grays Peak is good. I'm pretty sure your other problems are from casting from your pc instead of connecting the SUHD directly to the internet. If Grays peak doesn't play nice with your SUHD from a USB flashdrive, it probably doesn't support mkv container, in which case I'll rewrap it inside mp4.
 
jpham said:
I watch that video - I don't see much HDR... but then, I'm using my PC to drive this 55" TV via HDMI.
does PC decode Youtube HDR VP9 correctly? is there a HDR test screen video that we can calibrate to?
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No. Your TV needs the YouTube VP9 decoder app to enable HDR mode or it needs the chromecast ultra dongle.
 
Tom,

My Samsung SUHD TV definitely is able to sense the HDR10 flag and switch into true HDR mode (there also is the fake one in the menu, but that's not worth mentioning here). I'm 100% sure that even before the first HDR movies appeared on YT, I was perfectly able to use the icon in the lower right of most (if not all) YT video window, and just cast it to my TV instead of watching on the PC system monitor. The problems started when the Chromecast plugin became integral part of Chrome (you cannot disable or remove it from Extensions or Plugins); I suppose Google decided to make money on this simple functionality and released the Chromecast hardware - the result being that now casting to my TV from YT page doesn't work at all, as I do not have the hardware thingy. Do you think this might be the reason - or should it still work like it used to, and I should throughly troubleshoot my LAN etc.? The thing is my PC is connected with Ethernet cable, while the Samsung TV uses wi-fi (on the same router). The "Cast to TV" button is there, but is inactive! On the other hand, any video clip (with the right wrapper and datarate not exceeding 100 Mbps much) can still be cast (and play back on my SUHD in the right mode - SDR or HDR - depending only on how it's been encoded) from its folder using the "Cast to..." option of the File Explorer's right click (contextual) menu...

I hate such mysteries :)

Piotr
 
Hurrah! It all works now - there simply must have been a fw update sent into my Samsung; I have reconfigured it and now I can cast from both my desktop and my mobile devices :)

Tom - your "Grays Peak..." video now also plays in HDR; those sparkles on the water at some 1:30 are awesome. Thanks!

Piotr
 
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