F55: Has anyone tested recording 4k with atomos shogun
- Thread starter Sami2
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Haven't tested Shogun on F55. Have only tested it so far on A7S and FS7.
But the only way to get UHD (remember that the Shogun does not yet support DCI 4K) from F55 to Shogun is via HDMI.
And I will certainly not say how well my FS7 outputs UHD via HDMI to the Odyssey 7Q+.
Ned Soltz
But the only way to get UHD (remember that the Shogun does not yet support DCI 4K) from F55 to Shogun is via HDMI.
And I will certainly not say how well my FS7 outputs UHD via HDMI to the Odyssey 7Q+.
Ned Soltz
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Mitch Gross
Veteran
One thing to note with recording UHD from the F55 is that the HDMI output always has the MLUT applied. In order to capture an S-Log signal off the F55 one needs to record via SDI. Due to the limit of a single SDI port on the Shogun, it is limited to recording from the F55 via HDMI, while the Odyssey7Q+ can record from either HDMI or SDI.
In order to capture UHD s-log signal from HDMI the LUT can be set to s-log2 or s-log3 for HDMI UHD output. So what Mitch states above is not correct. UHD SLOG can be recorded from F55 to Atomos Shogun via HDMI.
I need to test both devices. The test matters the most is testing how many frames of lag there is on the UHD picture displayed on Shogun or on odyssey via HDMI. There might be less lag when uhd pictured is inputted to odyssey via SDIs.
The price point on Atomos is pretty good, especially for me hence i already own a punch of 240GB SS-Drives that i can use with atomos. To my knowledge third party drives do not work on odyssey.
Mitch Gross
Veteran
If you select an S-Log as the MLUT for the HDMI out on the F5/F55, I believe that this means that the viewfinder and everything else on the F55 will be forced into log viewing as well. This may not be satisfactory for the operator or others who need to see the image.
In the age of disposable cameras, there is an argument to be made that the recorder is the new camera. If it can evolve it has the potential to become a longer lasting device and hence a wiser investment than the sensor box itself. This is a new business model.
It seems to me that the Odyssey is a sensible device in this manner.
It strikes me however that the Shogun is a more disposable unit meant to meet certain needs at a particular time and place and it is more likely to be replaced with the next generation of needs. As such the possibility for non-proprietary media is a definite plus. However, the unit itself will likely be replaced more quickly as well. So I think the target client has to assess their choices and decide what is best for them.
It has been mentioned that the issue of HDMI output puts a damper on viewfinder monitoring in terms of LUT's etc.
I think personally that the next generation of recorders however will also be a viewfinder. It will be smaller and will in a sense kill two birds with one stone.
I have resisted both recorder's mentioned because I don't want a great honking monitor on my camera. Neither unit satisfies me. Transvideo is clearly moving towards this with a unit which is smaller and can create proxies for instance. The most obvious issue around this kind of product is the heat that such a unit would generate. I strongly suspect with the advent of cfast cards as a valid form of recording media that once again we will be facing a paradigm not even based on the recorder but actually the recording media itself. As such the ninja star has the potential to become the basis of Atomos's next move, not the shogun. Let's hope that they are considering this. In any case if either manufacturer wants to continue to hold the reigns of their business they are going to need to address this.
I personally think smaller units are not too far off and I am of course deeply curious what CD would do if such a move happens.
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basspig
Veteran
So you mean to say that you can get good recordable video out the HDMI into Shogun? That's good, because XAVC isn't going to work in Premiere CS6, but ProRes seems fine.
As I grow older and more blind, I'm finding the larger and larger screens for monitors to be a blessing.
You will get HDMI 3840 from FS7 to Shogun via HDMI. Shogun at the moment does not do 4096. You will also get 1920x1080 via SDI. If you buy the Shogun, let us know about the dust and moisture issues you experience with its open top louvres or whether the SSD caddy breaks off.
Ned Soltz
Ned Soltz
olof
DVXuser Sponsor
I had the Shogun for a while. I updated FW and tried 4 different recommend SSDs. I never managed to get a reliable 10 minute recording w/o a few black frames even on the latest FW. So I returned it.
I seems this happens as the SSDs get almost full and if they have been in a computer w/o reformatting afterwards. I got some clean 10 minute recordings but I just can't trust a piece of equipment that is not consistent. I think Atomos will probably have to recommend or sell just one SSD that really works and is guaranteed to work.
Like I said it does not happen all the time but often towards the end of a SSD capacity. To me this is unacceptable.
I seems this happens as the SSDs get almost full and if they have been in a computer w/o reformatting afterwards. I got some clean 10 minute recordings but I just can't trust a piece of equipment that is not consistent. I think Atomos will probably have to recommend or sell just one SSD that really works and is guaranteed to work.
Like I said it does not happen all the time but often towards the end of a SSD capacity. To me this is unacceptable.
basspig
Veteran
Are you having black frames with 4K recording, or with all resolutions? I have been using various Atomos recorders for 4 years now, and, after a spate of bad SSD drives from OCZ, I switched to the more expensive Intel drives and have never had any further problems. Ever.
The Shogun recording is solid, but it doesn't allow DNxHD, which is a problem for my Windows-based NLE setup.
If the unit doesn't get dropped, I don't see why the SSD caddy would break off.
The opening on the top does concern me. Can't film in the rain. But most of my work is in concert halls, so that's not a problem. What IS a problem is the fan noise. It gets into the on-camera mics via mechanical conduction. Of further concern is the fact that one user reported a loud 'ratatatatat' noise of the fan blades hitting something. That would be a disaster in a classical concert--we'd be banned from ever recording again if our equipment ever made noise like that.
The Shogun recording is solid, but it doesn't allow DNxHD, which is a problem for my Windows-based NLE setup.
If the unit doesn't get dropped, I don't see why the SSD caddy would break off.
The opening on the top does concern me. Can't film in the rain. But most of my work is in concert halls, so that's not a problem. What IS a problem is the fan noise. It gets into the on-camera mics via mechanical conduction. Of further concern is the fact that one user reported a loud 'ratatatatat' noise of the fan blades hitting something. That would be a disaster in a classical concert--we'd be banned from ever recording again if our equipment ever made noise like that.
I Prefer to use slog on the viewfinder as i shoot, so it wont be a problem at all and if there is a need a lut can be applied to the image on shogun from shogun. if i want to change the output iso I need to use the slog lut on the output regardless if i use sdi or hdmi, with no lut/clean signal the camera outputs only 1250 iso even if you set iso to 2500 in cine mode.
I already have xqd cards with adapter and r5, so i would mainly use the shogun for checking the 4k focus, not for recording hence with 4k raw the proxies can be recorded to xqd cards.
I have no idea why some people are commenting on why they do not want a big recorder or asking if they should by the fs7, is going way off topic a new trend here
Using bad or almost full SS drives for recording will definetily cause problems, hence they tend to cause problems any where u use them.
Why i have set my eyes on shogun instead of odyssey if definetily the price, price of media, format support and included accessories. similar set-up on adyssey is about twice as expensive as it is on shogun.
I already have xqd cards with adapter and r5, so i would mainly use the shogun for checking the 4k focus, not for recording hence with 4k raw the proxies can be recorded to xqd cards.
I have no idea why some people are commenting on why they do not want a big recorder or asking if they should by the fs7, is going way off topic a new trend here
Using bad or almost full SS drives for recording will definetily cause problems, hence they tend to cause problems any where u use them.
Why i have set my eyes on shogun instead of odyssey if definetily the price, price of media, format support and included accessories. similar set-up on adyssey is about twice as expensive as it is on shogun.
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The SSD Caddy on the Atomos slides onto the back of the unit and is held essentially by friction and connects via an exposed SATA connector. It protrudes slightly from the unit to be able to remove it (simply by pulling hard on the caddy). My concerns with this very shoddy construction are several. It could easily dislodge if dropped. Repeated insertions and removals of caddy could distend the plastic guides and connection would not be secure. The protruding end of the caddy could be knocked by operator, assistant or anyone else and break off the SSD. It does have a number of codec options which Odyssey does not have at the moment. It only has 1 SDI in and 1 SDI out. We don't know what the Raw support actually will be since that isn't scheduled for another few months.
All things considered, I cannot recommend Shogun based primarily on construction and secondarily on lack of i/o options.
As far as media, there are far too many examples of failures of consumer media. I certainly experienced it with an original Blackmagic camera. Olof has shared his experience in a post above.
Others may of course disagree but these are among my findings from reviewing the product.
Ned Soltz
All things considered, I cannot recommend Shogun based primarily on construction and secondarily on lack of i/o options.
As far as media, there are far too many examples of failures of consumer media. I certainly experienced it with an original Blackmagic camera. Olof has shared his experience in a post above.
Others may of course disagree but these are among my findings from reviewing the product.
Ned Soltz
basspig
Veteran
I was soured on SSD drives for a while when I was buying the cheap stuff (OCZ drives) and had the first two go bad within four hours of use. After I switched to a quality brand (Intel) of SSD, I never had any further issues. As my confidence grew, I eventually replaced one, the both of my NLE boot hard drives with SSDs from Intel. Running beautifully now since Dec 2012. Last month, I changed out my editing drives to SSD, 1TB units from Mushkin. Again, no problems and very, very fast!
The good news for the Shogun is that Atomos released the 6.2 FW yesterday morning. DNxHD/HR is not a part of it.
I'm still trying to sort out whether the FS7 outputs 4K HDMI signals without having the RAW adapter. B&H tech told me no. Others seem to think it can. I'm still waiting for someone to confirm that the Shogun can record 4K off the FS7 without $7K worth of Sony accessories being required.
The good news for the Shogun is that Atomos released the 6.2 FW yesterday morning. DNxHD/HR is not a part of it.
I'm still trying to sort out whether the FS7 outputs 4K HDMI signals without having the RAW adapter. B&H tech told me no. Others seem to think it can. I'm still waiting for someone to confirm that the Shogun can record 4K off the FS7 without $7K worth of Sony accessories being required.
Mitch Gross
Veteran
The FS7 can output UHD or 4K over HDMI without the extension back, but the Shogun can only record UHD. The Odyssey 7Q+ can record both, again, with no added expense Record Option.
Mitch Gross
Veteran
Curious how you calculated this.
Yes, as stated elsewhere, I too have recorded both (not at the same time of course) 4K and UHD to my 7Q+. I also recently compared the XAVC-I CineEI/Slog3 UHD to the internal card to the same material recorded at the same time to the 7Q+ UHD/ProRes via HDMI. The 7Q+ recording is noticeably sharper than the internal one, even after converting to 1080p. It's not a huge difference but it is there. And of course the ProRes version is less compressed.
On a side note, I also recently used the 7Q+ via HDMI from my D800 and got a recording that is better than I realized was possible from the D800. As you may realize, the internal recordings on DSLR's are long gop and heavily compressed, including a reduced color space.
You folks take care,
Robert
basspig
Veteran
From the Shogun specifications:
12G-SDI 4K 50/60p Support
Apple ProRes HD 4:4:4 10-bit
FS700 RAW decode
Full 4K - 4096 x 2160 support
basspig
Veteran
My decision to go with the Shogun over the Oddyssey was two things:
Shogun's superior FULL HD screen --the downfall of so many expensive camera monitors is that they max out at 1280x720.
Shogun's freedom to let you choose your own inexpensive media.
The Oddyssey's base price may look like a bargain, but when you discover that you're locked into very expensive proprietary drives, you'll quickly be into thousands of dollars more add on hardware. I only spent $170 on a SanDisk Xtreme SSD for the Shogun. The Oddyssey does excel at one thing: 240FPS recording in 2K. Shogun tops out at 120FPS.
$2 grand and nothing more to buy, and since I don't usually shoot extreme overcrank footage, the Shogun is right for me.