F55: Has anyone tested recording 4k with atomos shogun

basspig said:
If that's true, then I'll have to sue them for false advertizing. :-)
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they do mention 4K but always specify UHD which is not 4096x2160....they also do not have it on their future release papers...not saying it might not happen but so far i don't see how you could talk about false advertising...
 
Atomos has recently had a spate of annoyed customers for advertizing features that we come to find are not included in the units shipped. DNxHD was the case unil last week. I guess this 4K recording capability is another.
 
Oh dear... the shogun can't be used with the FS7 via SDI? only HDMI? Is it even possible to record raw over hdmi?
 
The Shogun can be used with the FS7 in HD via SDI. The FS7 only outputs UHD only via SDI and Shogun can be used with that as well. Atomos has a roadmap to Raw later in the year but we know no more details. Of course that would require the FS7+back to output a Raw signal to the external recorder.

Ned Soltz
 
Sorry Ned, but you have that wrong.

The FS7 outputs 4K and UHD, but only via HDMI.

The FS7 SDI outputs are strictly for HD only.

For a RAW signal, the XDCA-FS7 Extension back is required. A BNC SDI connector is used, but to access the RAW this accessory is required. Currently only the Odyssey7Q, Odyssey7Q+ and Sony's recorder system can connect to this output.
 
I thought that was what i said. Or at least what I intended to say. My fault for multi tasking after only 1 cup of coffee
 
Mitch Gross said:
Sorry Ned, but you have that wrong.

The FS7 outputs 4K and UHD, but only via HDMI.

The FS7 SDI outputs are strictly for HD only.

For a RAW signal, the XDCA-FS7 Extension back is required. A BNC SDI connector is used, but to access the RAW this accessory is required. Currently only the Odyssey7Q, Odyssey7Q+ and Sony's recorder system can connect to this output.
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Close, but not quite. The FS7 without the back can do 2K (2048) via SDI in addition to HD.

I believe I set the record res to UHD to do this.

Yall be cool,
Robert
 
I have the extension back and a shogun with the latest firmware, but I can't pick up any signals via the BNC connectors - RAW or otherwise. Is this normal?
 
Shogun does not yet accept a Raw signal. Per their roadmap, next firmware will downsample FS Raw to ProRes with FS Raw to DNG later in the year.

It will record via SDI. Are you using the SDI 1 output on camera, NOT the BNC on the extension which is only for Raw? Do you have the camera output configured for SDI HD/2K?

If you want to record UHD to the Shogun (it does not yet record 4K), you must use HDMI from the FS7. You can output HD/2K via SDI from FS7 to Shogun.

Ned Soltz
 
on calculating the price diffenrence:
Here is what comes with atomos shogun for 1600€ without VAT
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7541/15858323778_042dd8262d_z.jpg
and then two Samsung EVO 850 1 TB drives at 380€ each without VAT
So the grand total of working recorder, with case etc and two terabytes of storage is 2360€ without VAT

Similar setup with Odyssey 7Q+ (prices witout VAT):
odyssey 7Q+ 2270€
2 * 1Tb odyssey SSD 1300€ each
usb sata adapter 70€
Battery plate for sony L 90€
Odyssey Case 190€
Battery and charger 90€
4k raw license 760€ (this will come free with shogun on future firmware upgrade

With odyssey 7q+ the grand total of similar setup is 6070€ without VAT

So let me say that I am sorry about saying that odyssey is 2 times more expensive, when in fact it is 2,6 times more expensive than shogun...
 
Sami2 said:
on calculating the price diffenrence:
Here is what comes with atomos shogun for 1600€ without VAT
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7541/15858323778_042dd8262d_z.jpg
and then two Samsung EVO 850 1 TB drives at 380€ each without VAT
So the grand total of working recorder, with case etc and two terabytes of storage is 2360€ without VAT

Similar setup with Odyssey 7Q+ (prices witout VAT):
odyssey 7Q+ 2270€
2 * 1Tb odyssey SSD 1300€ each
usb sata adapter 70€
Battery plate for sony L 90€
Odyssey Case 190€
Battery and charger 90€
4k raw license 760€ (this will come free with shogun on future firmware upgrade

With odyssey 7q+ the grand total of similar setup is 6070€ without VAT

So let me say that I am sorry about saying that odyssey is 2 times more expensive, when in fact it is 2,6 times more expensive than shogun...
Click to expand...

You are comparing apples v. oranges.

First off, the Shogun does not record the RAW signal from the FS7 or FS700. In the future Atoms is saying that it will do some recording from those cameras, but it is technically impossible to do all of the recording modes the Odyssey7Q+ can do. With only one SATA port for the SSDs, it is impossible to record 4K RAW faster than 30p or 2K RAW faster than 120p. The Odyssey7Q+ can record 4K RAW up to 60p, 4K RAW Burst up to 120p (on the FS700) and 2K RAW up to 240p. These record rates are a technical impossibility with the Shogun design. The Odyssey also will take the 4K RAW and transform it into video to be recorded as 4K, UHD, 2K, or HD Apple ProRes in S-Log2, Rec709 or Rec709(800%). And it will also take the 4K RAW Burst and record it in 2K or HD Apple ProRes. And we have more features to come. So yes, there is a Record Option fee on the Odyssey7Q+ that is not there on the Shogun, but no matter what is added to the Shogun it will never equal what the Odyssey7Q+ provides.

But so what? This is a thread about recording from the F55. There is no Record Option required at all to record from the F55. From the F55 the Odyssey7Q+ can record via the SDI outputs. That means it can record both true 4K (4096x2160) as well as UHD (3840x2160). Shogun can only record via HDMI which means it is limited to UHD; even if it does eventually add 4K the F55 will not output that over HDMI.

You put 2x 1TB SSDs on the list, ignoring the fact that the Odyssey7Q+ comes with 2x 256G SSDs included. Perhaps you feel that the kitting you desire needs those drives, but it is disingenuous to put it forth in this way. I don't know what USB to SATA adapter you're looking at, but you don't have to use ours and I know they can be purchased for a LOT less. I don't know EU prices per se, but I can get a SATA adapter off Amazon here for $15, so I don't think it's that much different.

Likewise you don't have to buy our Odyssey case if you don't want to. It's nice that Atomos includes one, but most people prefer to stick an accessory item such as this in their current camera case. Maybe something like a Dome wrap or pouch, but you'll need that for either Odyssey or Shogun so that one is a wash.

So yes the Odyssey7Q+ costs more, but I don't think it's fair to claim it costs so much more. It simply isn't an accurate representation of the two devices.

Hey, just my opinion.
 
Shogun package grand total is now 2550 € as I added a 500 Gb 190€ samsung 850 evo to the Shogun package hence you have two 256 harddrives bundled with odyssey.

Lets make one thing clear, FS700 uses 3g-sdi for raw output, 3g-sdi has maximum datarate of about 300 megabytes per second (2.970 Gbit/s).

SSD has a datarate of 550 megabytes per second so your statement of insufficient datarate is pretty weird.

Nice that you are recomending third party case and ssd caddy instead of your own, and still forcing users to buy over priced ss-drives from you.

Title of the thread is my mistake and semantics, hence at that time i aws unaware that shogun records only UHD, that by the way is enough for my needs. If i want 4k raw or 4k i can always go internal with 4k or use my sony 4k raw recorder on f55.

still the price is about 2.5 times higher and did not even count all the shogun accessories for example xlr cables.

As I did the math above I will definetily buy the shogun :)
 
Sami2 said:
Lets make one thing clear, FS700 uses 3g-sdi for raw output, 3g-sdi has maximum datarate of about 300 megabytes per second (2.970 Gbit/s).

SSD has a datarate of 550 megabytes per second so your statement of insufficient datarate is pretty weird.
Click to expand...
Yes, let's make one thing clear, you are comparing two numbers that have nothing to do with one another.

The RAW signal that comes out of the 3G-SDI port on the FS700 (and on the FS7 for that matter) is a compressed RAW format, about 3.5:1. Otherwise it would be impossible to get 12-bit 4K RAW out of a single 3G-SDI feed, even at 24p. The FS700 can output 4K RAW up to 60p and 2K RAW up to 240p.

This FS RAW format is an "internal" one, meaning that there is no post program in the world that reads it. Sony's solution is to use their HXR-IFR5 Interface Unit in conjunction with the R5 recorder yu use on your F55. That Interface Unit transforms the FS RAW format files into the format used by the F5/F55.

Sony does not allow Convergent Design or anyone else to convert files into that format, so we instead go to uncompressed Cinema DNG files. They are larger than the files that come out of the camera originally. How much larger? Large enough so that the only way for us to record 4K above 30p (meaning 4K 50p or 59.94p) is to stripe across two SSDs, odd frames on one and even frames on the other. We have a simple App to stitch the files back together during transfer to your computer and it happens in seconds, so it's really no big deal operationally. But it is absolutely required because a SATA buss (the connection for a drive to mount to the device) cannot handle the data flow above this. Note that I am not referring to any given SSD or hard drive's speed capacity, but to the connection itself. It will only let so much info through.

When referring to these files (12-bit linear RAW data Cinema DNGs derived from the FS700) the limitation of a single SATA port is 4K at 29.97p and 2K at 120p (actually 119.something). So the Shogun with its single SATA port will never be able to record 4K RAW at 50p or 59.94p, and it will never be able to record 2K RAW at 200p or 240p (really 239.something). This is simple math; if you want me to provide you with all the digits and salient data I can do so, but I think the point is clear.

Purchase what you want and use whatever devices suit you best. I am here to make sure that accurate information is presented, and I felt that your perspective colored some of your data. I'm sure you feel the same about me, but again I am trying to present factual data.
 
I read these threads to educate myself, and I always learn something new almost daily.

When Mitch chimes in, I feel like i'm in the front row at Harvard University.

Thanks, Mitch!

-Dave
 
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