H4n + NTG2 = Dissappointment So Far

[mctoom]

I'm new to all of this filed so please be patient with me.

I know there are many posts discussing related issues about this, but believe, me, I read all of them and I was even more confused about it.

I just bought an NTG2 mic and an H4n recorder so I would record the sounds along with my 7d cam. I put new batteries to both of them and made some tests indoor, but the sound was not as expected. Very low sound (even with 100 volume recording), and when normalized or amplified in post, a lot of noise comes up and make it even worse.

1- Am I missing something? Some suggest using a mixer to solve the issue. Will the mixer help reducing the noise? Or is it only good for increasing the gain? What is the process of using a mixer?

2- In case of indoor filming, should the room be completely silent when shooting (no AC units on or running machines)?

3- How do you usually reduce noise, is it something achieved in post production or something must be arranged while shooting? In case you want to reduce it in post, how is it done?

4- Why not just record directly using h4n (it's much better quality alone)?

5- How do you control pre-amps in the Zoom, is it in the Matrix parameters?

Please tell everything you know about it, and remember I don't know the basics so please illustrate in detail.

Many many thanks in advance.

mctoom

 

[drapeama]

I just bought an NTG2 mic and an H4n recorder [...]

1- Some suggest using a mixer to solve the issue.

2- In case of indoor filming, should the room be completely silent when shooting (no AC units on or running machines)?

3- How do you usually reduce noise?

4- Why not just record directly using h4n (it's much better quality alone)?

5- How do you control pre-amps in the Zoom, is it in the Matrix parameters?

I don't have the H4, but basically the H2 would be similar in audio quality:
1) I usually use a JuicedLink with my zoom because of the JL preamp, which is less noisy. Then if the gain isn't enough, you can use the gain of the zoom to compensate. Normally, the external preamp should give you a good level,
2) The less noise and ambiant sounds you have when you record, the less you want to remove in post. If it's possible, always reduce everything else than what you want to record on the set.
3) EQ, Noise Reduction plugin...every NLE software has one. In some cases, the EQ does a good job alone.
4) It's always a possibility, depending on what you plan to record. The internal mics are great, records stereo. But you're always better to use your shotgun to capture dialog (less ambiant sounds captured) depending if you're indoor or outdoor (different type of microphones) I personally use an Audio-Technica AT650 for indoor capture. Depending on the situation, i also have an Audio-Technica MB4K, a Shure 515SDX and an Azden SGM-1x shotgun.
5) On the H2, there's a switch on the side : Low. Medium. High.

 

[gpforet]

Any ambient room noise will likely be recorded.

How far was the microphone from the talent? Anything more that 20" or so produced inferior results.

I'm new to all of this filed so please be patient with me.

I know there are many posts discussing related issues about this, but believe, me, I read all of them and I was even more confused about it.

I just bought an NTG2 mic and an H4n recorder so I would record the sounds along with my 7d cam. I put new batteries to both of them and made some tests indoor, but the sound was not as expected. Very low sound (even with 100 volume recording), and when normalized or amplified in post, a lot of noise comes up and make it even worse.

1- Am I missing something? Some suggest using a mixer to solve the issue. Will the mixer help reducing the noise? Or is it only good for increasing the gain? What is the process of using a mixer?

2- In case of indoor filming, should the room be completely silent when shooting (no AC units on or running machines)?

3- How do you usually reduce noise, is it something achieved in post production or something must be arranged while shooting? In case you want to reduce it in post, how is it done?

4- Why not just record directly using h4n (it's much better quality alone)?

5- How do you control pre-amps in the Zoom, is it in the Matrix parameters?

Please tell everything you know about it, and remember I don't know the basics so please illustrate in detail.

Many many thanks in advance.

mctoom

 

[Steve House]

What specific kind of noise are you hearing in the tests you mentioned? "Noise" could be anything from wind to refrigerators to hiss from the preamps.

Always work in as quiet a surrounding as possible ... turn off everything that can be turned off.

Always use a proper shockmount to reduce handling noise.

Outdoors use proper wind protection, not just the foam cover.

Indoors at least use the foam windshield - mic movement and air currents can cause wind noise.

Be advised, a shotgun like the NTG-2 is not an optimum choice for reflective interiors (although that specific mic is a bit better behaved indoors than many). The rule of thumb is hypercardioid indoors, shotguns out.

Above all NEVER, EVER fall into the trap of "We can fix it in post" because you might not be ABLE to fix it. Post production processing and noise reduction can only do so much and it usually introduces other copmromises into the final product. Take the time and do whatever has to be done to get it right on the set.

 

[mctoom]

drapeama, that was very enlightening.

Do you connect the mixer between the mic and the Zoom? How does the mixer reduce the unwanted noises?

Regarding noise reduction, how do you think it is possible to eliminate unwanted ambient sounds, like in a restaurant for instance, and you want to record only the conversation in a small table, but you can't control the voices of people around. Is it possible by our small equipment?

gpforet, In case you want to take a medium shot where you must place the mic in a distance that is more than 20", how do act in such situation?

 

[mctoom]

Steve, I wish I knew that rule of thumb before buying since I'm planning to shoot indoor, but it's good to know that anyway.

The noise I'm receiving basically is the annoying hiss.

Thank you!

 

[gpforet]

How are you monitoring the recording?

I ask because my Tascam DR-100 does produce some hiss in the headphone circuit which I hear when monitoring. However, when playing the files back in my studio the hiss is much further down in the mix. Often times, the cheap headphone amplifiers in these portable recorders add substantial hiss during monitoring and playback.

With that being said, the zoom/rode combo is known for having low output and therefore a higher noise floor when normalizing the recording.

Placing a mixer (or any quality mic preamp such as the SD MM-1, SD MP-1, or the Whirlwind MD-1) between the microphone and zoom should provide additional clean gain, allowing you to run the zoom preamps at a much lower level, and as a result, provide a recording with a lower noise floor.

All of this is based on proper positioning of the boom mic, meaning within 20" inches or so of the talent. No matter what gear is used, mic position is paramount.

Steve, I wish I knew that rule of thumb before buying since I'm planning to shoot indoor, but it's good to know that anyway.

The noise I'm receiving basically is the annoying hiss.

Thank you!

 

[Alex H.]

First, if you read lots of posts about the problems with the NTG-2/H4n combo, why did you go ahead and buy these two devices? Confused or not about what's going on, the consensus is that the NTG-2 and the H4n consistently result in low recording levels.

1- Am I missing something? Some suggest using a mixer to solve the issue. Will the mixer help reducing the noise? Or is it only good for increasing the gain? What is the process of using a mixer?

A mixer has better pre-amps, and it is the pre-amp in the H4n that is not strong wnough to bring the NTG-2's signal up to a proper recording level. You may want to invest in something like the Sound Devices MM-1, which is a single-channel pre-amp that will work wonders with your NTG-2. If also gives the boom op his/her own headphone monitoring away from the recorder.

Most audio circuits have some level of self-noise, or noise floor. Usually, it's not a big issue because it cannot be heard with good recording levels and proper gain staging. Gain staging is the art of calibrating your signal chain for the best signal-to-noise ratio. What you're finding with your recording is that the pre-amps are weak, so you have to crank the gain all the way up even to get a little signal out of the mic. That, in turn, amplifies self-noise from the H4n.

A stronger signal on the input means lower gain which means less amplification of the H4n's self-noise.

2- In case of indoor filming, should the room be completely silent when shooting (no AC units on or running machines)?

As a rule, absolutely. Control every potential noise source you can during production. You can always add ambient noises back in during post, but it's much harder to take them out.

3- How do you usually reduce noise, is it something achieved in post production or something must be arranged while shooting? In case you want to reduce it in post, how is it done?

The goal is to record your production audio as clean as possible. Gain staging reduces/eliminates noise floor from the gear (assuming the gear doesn't have a poor noise floor to begin with). Pre-production planning and prep will help reduce/eliminate environmental noise issues (wind, refrigerators, AC units, etc.).

If you still end up with some hiss in post, there are tools that can help... but they are time-consuming and, if used improperly, can do more damage than good to your audio.

4- Why not just record directly using h4n (it's much better quality alone)?

The mics in the H4n are stereo. Dialog is always recorded in mono, and mixed in mono (to the center of a stereo or surround mix). Yeah, you can ditch one channel in post, but...

The mics in the H4n are wide cardioid, giving them way too much response to get clean dialog. You can compensate for that by getting the mics even closer, but with those you'll have to have them so close they're only out of frame for tight close-ups.

To get the H4n close enough to record dialog with the built-in mics, it would have to be in such a position that the operator would not be able to access controls or watch the meters during recording. Headphones are your first line of defense for audio problems, but in the event of a problem the meter is a great diagnostic tool.

The H4n's mics are susceptible to lots of handling noise, making them a poor choice for pole-mounted recording.

 

[Alex H.]

Regarding noise reduction, how do you think it is possible to eliminate unwanted ambient sounds, like in a restaurant for instance, and you want to record only the conversation in a small table, but you can't control the voices of people around. Is it possible by our small equipment?

Restaurant scenes in films are shot with all background players who mime their conversations. There is no background noise. This may require working things out with the location's management to shoot when they're usually closed.

Your equipment has little to do with getting good results in a crowded, live restaurant. It has everything to do with the very high noise floor in the room. If you cannot control the environment in the restaurant, consider moving the scene to a place where you can.

 

[mctoom]

How are you monitoring the recording?

I ask because my Tascam DR-100 does produce some hiss in the headphone circuit which I hear when monitoring. However, when playing the files back in my studio the hiss is much further down in the mix. Often times, the cheap headphone amplifiers in these portable recorders add substantial hiss during monitoring and playback.

With that being said, the zoom/rode combo is known for having low output and therefore a higher noise floor when normalizing the recording.

Placing a mixer (or any quality mic preamp such as the SD MM-1, SD MP-1, or the Whirlwind MD-1) between the microphone and zoom should provide additional clean gain, allowing you to run the zoom preamps at a much lower level, and as a result, provide a recording with a lower noise floor.

All of this is based on proper positioning of the boom mic, meaning within 20" inches or so of the talent. No matter what gear is used, mic position is paramount.

The headphone I use is Sennheiser 280 which is acceptable to me. The hiss sound remains the same after transferring to the machine. Maybe one reason of the problem is me using a shotgun mic instead of a hypercardioid one in an interior shot.

Thanks for clarifying the preamp role. I'm considering buying one right now.

 

[mctoom]

First, if you read lots of posts about the problems with the NTG-2/H4n combo, why did you go ahead and buy these two devices? Confused or not about what's going on, the consensus is that the NTG-2 and the H4n consistently result in low recording levels.



A mixer has better pre-amps, and it is the pre-amp in the H4n that is not strong wnough to bring the NTG-2's signal up to a proper recording level. You may want to invest in something like the Sound Devices MM-1, which is a single-channel pre-amp that will work wonders with your NTG-2. If also gives the boom op his/her own headphone monitoring away from the recorder.

Most audio circuits have some level of self-noise, or noise floor. Usually, it's not a big issue because it cannot be heard with good recording levels and proper gain staging. Gain staging is the art of calibrating your signal chain for the best signal-to-noise ratio. What you're finding with your recording is that the pre-amps are weak, so you have to crank the gain all the way up even to get a little signal out of the mic. That, in turn, amplifies self-noise from the H4n.

A stronger signal on the input means lower gain which means less amplification of the H4n's self-noise.



As a rule, absolutely. Control every potential noise source you can during production. You can always add ambient noises back in during post, but it's much harder to take them out.



The goal is to record your production audio as clean as possible. Gain staging reduces/eliminates noise floor from the gear (assuming the gear doesn't have a poor noise floor to begin with). Pre-production planning and prep will help reduce/eliminate environmental noise issues (wind, refrigerators, AC units, etc.).

If you still end up with some hiss in post, there are tools that can help... but they are time-consuming and, if used improperly, can do more damage than good to your audio.



The mics in the H4n are stereo. Dialog is always recorded in mono, and mixed in mono (to the center of a stereo or surround mix). Yeah, you can ditch one channel in post, but...

The mics in the H4n are wide cardioid, giving them way too much response to get clean dialog. You can compensate for that by getting the mics even closer, but with those you'll have to have them so close they're only out of frame for tight close-ups.

To get the H4n close enough to record dialog with the built-in mics, it would have to be in such a position that the operator would not be able to access controls or watch the meters during recording. Headphones are your first line of defense for audio problems, but in the event of a problem the meter is a great diagnostic tool.

The H4n's mics are susceptible to lots of handling noise, making them a poor choice for pole-mounted recording.

When I faced the problem, I made research about it and started reading, that's why

Thanks for the enlightenment man, that was very helpful.