EVA1: Gratical Eye + Atomos RAW?

F

filmguy123

Veteran
Is there a way to use a Gratical Eye EVF with the EVA1 *and* run the shogun inferno via SDI for RAW?

Gratical Eye is SDI input and there's only one SDI out on EVA1?
 
Is there SDI out on the Inferno so you can feed the Gratical Eye an image that way...this seems like the perfect combo to me.
 
fboonzaier said:
Is there SDI out on the Inferno so you can feed the Gratical Eye an image that way...this seems like the perfect combo to me.
Click to expand...

But then you are starting to introduce a significant delay in the monitoring chain and the last place you want a delay is in your VF. This is one of the things that I hate hate hate about my C300, only one SDI. So when I do shoot with it, I usually end up daisy chaining devices and the delay for downstream devices is very apparent. I would not want to try to follow action or really do anything else besides a lazy sit-down or lock-off with a monitor or VF that is connected to the camera as the second or third, etc. device. The VF is always the first thing hooked up to the SDI out and any other devices(usually just on-camera monitor and large monitor being fed multiple cams on multi-cam shoots) is downstream from it.
 
Not sure the amount of delay in the chain described but I would pay attention to that. I have a GH5 I use for interviews and jobs like that but that lag out of the hdmi output takes it out for a whole host of applications except being locked off. It’s a bummer, really and a tremendous oversight. How can you move the camera or have a subject in motion when you have a delay pulling focus? I don’t think you can.
 
Shoot. Ok, so, possible, but must daisy chain?

And it doesn't seem I could go VF first and then daisy chain to atomos. Why oh why...
 
filmguy123 said:
Shoot. Ok, so, possible, but must daisy chain?

And it doesn't seem I could go VF first and then daisy chain to atomos. Why oh why...
Click to expand...

Take the HDMI out of the camera and convert to SDI using a small USB powered converter. Use that feed to send to Gratical.
 
As explained to me once by the folks at one of the external recorder companies, you should never loop through anything between the camera and an external recorder. You never know how the signal will degrade...
With that in mind...
You might find less delay sending the HDMI out from the camera through a small HDMI-HDSDI adapter to feed the VF.
You are right about the delay factor and making operating difficult. That's something I really hated about the Sony FS700 series, and to a certain extent the FS7 as well. If you try to pull focus looking at a big monitor, the delay is so significant that by the time the image hits focus on the monitor the lens has already pulled past it.
A good way to test your delay is to shoot the camera with another camera behind it - set so you can see the subject / viewfinder / monitor / etc. all in the same frame. Roll on this 'behind the scenes' camera and do a simple clap and see how many frames delayed each viewing source is! (Look at playback on an edit system...)
 
I'm guessing there is probably going to be more delay introduced by sending the HDMI signal into a converter to change it into SDI. You're kind of between a rock and a hard place.

And I do agree with it possibly being bad putting another piece of equipment between the camera and recorder. We did a sit-down interview last spring, three cameras with C300's. They wanted to feed the two main cameras back as it happened so they could start editing. Since you only have one SDI on the 300, I fed my VF from the camera as usual and then looped out to the cell backpack. Well, that was a waste of time for my camera. We had to re-feed mine after the fact, because the Graticle stripped the embedded audio out of the HD-SDI stream. All they received from me was the video.(yes they had both audio channels from the other camera, but that is another discussion...)

My .02, if a manufacturer ever has the choice of putting an SDI OUT & HDMI OUT *OR* two SDI OUT's on a professional camera, ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS build the camera with multiple SDI's. NEVER sacrifice an SDI for HDMI.
 
A few simple things that would have / would make EVA1 *so* much better

  • 2 SDI ports (is what it is... next time)
  • Internal 4k 60p 10-bit 422 (not enough processing power apparently, even though FS7 has had for years)
  • Better internal codecs for HD (can still be fixed in firmware)
  • Improvements to UI and menus (this could still be updated in firmware, a handful of tweaks would go a long way here)
  • Better LCD (this adds so much weight/power/complexity to compensate for)
  • Record ProRes RAW internally to V90 SD (match up to C200)

These are all mostly simple but they introduce so many pain points, such as:

  • Need to add an external screen or VF to compensate, partially defeating size/weight advantage
  • Need to add external recorder to truly work in 4K for any slow motion (no 8-bit for me), defeating size/weight advantage
  • Internal HD is anemic with current codec options - worse than GH5 (please fix!) - need to add external recorder to compensate for, and shoot RAW to access VFR modes like 36/48/72 etc, again, defeating size/weight advantage
  • UI could be sooo much better with a handful of small tweaks (please fix!)

In the meantime, too bad Zacuto can't update the Gratical Eye w/SDI & HDMI.

The Z-Finder is crazy clunky, and also requires removal of the slick EVA1 sunshade, which really slows things down if you want to pop on and off shoulder/z-finder rig as well.

The thing is, I like the recoil rig, but I don't want to commit to it on a shoot. I've been trying to find a way to set the thing up for quick swapping between other ways of using the camera (like on my EasyRig MiniMax, which I love) and gimbal.

Currently my best option looks like it might be to just custom kit a long attachment for the stock EVA1 LCD, as poor as it is, with no View finder, and let it float in front of my face. To do this the camera can't slide too back on shoulder, so I'll have to add some rails in the back and mount the Atomos there as a sort of counter weight - this will allow me to keep the camera far enough forward to not have to extend the stock LCD too far ahead of me floating (so it doesn't end up in the shot).

Then I can QR all of this and get the rig super small and light again to pop unto an EasyRig or other.
 
You cannot feed a RAW signal over the SDI by first passing it through a Gratical Eye and then into a recorder. The signal is RAW and cannot be seen by the Gratical.

There is only one SDI output on the EVA1. Panasonic has enabled cloning of the LCD on the HDMI output in the EVA 2.0 firmware. This is the signal that should be sent to an onboard monitor or viewfinder.
 
Mitch Gross said:
You cannot feed a RAW signal over the SDI by first passing it through a Gratical Eye and then into a recorder. The signal is RAW and cannot be seen by the Gratical.

There is only one SDI output on the EVA1. Panasonic has enabled cloning of the LCD on the HDMI output in the EVA 2.0 firmware. This is the signal that should be sent to an onboard monitor or viewfinder.
Click to expand...
That was exactly the issue the prevented me from purchasing the Gratical Eye for the EVA1. Simply that the Gratical would not understand the raw from the SDI output if you shoot raw. And it has only SDI IN.

So either you use an additional HDMI to SDI converter, or another monitore like the heavier Gratical HD or a SmallHD 702/703 or you have crazy ideas as I had: if you record to raw you have to use the Shogun Inferno anyway. Well, the Shogun has both SDI in but also HDMI in. You could connect BOTH SDI and HDMI from the EVA1 to the Shogun and clone the LCD to HDMI. Simply by switching on the Shogun between SDI-in and HDMI-in you can see the full information on the HDMI-input what works with the 1599nits also in sunshine. And still can record to raw using SDI. Not very comfortable but it works.
 
I would need to check on the Shogun Inferno but I do not believe that it can record one signal while monitoring another. So you would only be able to use the HDMI signal while setting up a shot, not recording it. The switching between two signals, one being HD video over HDMI the other being RAW data of various possible resolutions over SDI, will likely be several menu adjustments each time, making for a very cumbersome method of working.
 
Run&Gun said:
My .02, if a manufacturer ever has the choice of putting an SDI OUT & HDMI OUT *OR* two SDI OUT's on a professional camera, ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS build the camera with multiple SDI's. NEVER sacrifice an SDI for HDMI.
Click to expand...

Agreed, but if it is only HD / 3G SDI you require duplicated use one of the following. Requires no external power, can be mounted on a camera without two much drama, is full broadcast quality and gives your camera two SDI outputs. Just remember if both outputs are not being used you shouldn't have one output floating. Well you can but for absolute quality the unused output needs to be terminated with a high quality 75 Ohm terminator. Know a couple of techs who swear by them. Was thinking of getting one myself as this sort of kit can always be useful at times for a variety of monitoring situations. Not super cheap but quality kit and well worth the $$$'s in the long run.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFJEgwStjXE

990 series down the bottom of this page.

http://www.etslan.com/products.cgi?cat=2

Chris Young
 
cyvideo said:
Agreed, but if it is only HD / 3G SDI you require duplicated use one of the following. Requires no external power, can be mounted on a camera without two much drama, is full broadcast quality and gives your camera two SDI outputs. Just remember if both outputs are not being used you shouldn't have one output floating. Well you can but for absolute quality the unused output needs to be terminated with a high quality 75 Ohm terminator. Know a couple of techs who swear by them. Was thinking of getting one myself as this sort of kit can always be useful at times for a variety of monitoring situations. Not super cheap but quality kit and well worth the $$$'s in the long run.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFJEgwStjXE

990 series down the bottom of this page.

http://www.etslan.com/products.cgi?cat=2

Chris Young
Click to expand...

Does a passive splitter of this type introduce any appreciable signal delay?
 
Mitch Gross said:
I would need to check on the Shogun Inferno but I do not believe that it can record one signal while monitoring another. So you would only be able to use the HDMI signal while setting up a shot, not recording it. The switching between two signals, one being HD video over HDMI the other being RAW data of various possible resolutions over SDI, will likely be several menu adjustments each time, making for a very cumbersome method of working.
Click to expand...
I did not say that you can monitor by HDMI and record at SDI at the same time. You have to switch. But to switch is not so cumbersome as you think. To switch means that you change the selection in the menu of the Inferno from SDI to HDMI only - two clicks. And sure, all the other settings must set in the beginning one time.

One major limitation is that if one has selected CDNG or PRR you cannot switch between HDMI and SDI. So that works for recording from the raw input to ProRes or DNxHR only.

Sure, to have a second display also in the sunshine is easier.
 
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cyvideo said:
Agreed, but if it is only HD / 3G SDI you require duplicated use one of the following. Requires no external power, can be mounted on a camera without two much drama, is full broadcast quality and gives your camera two SDI outputs. Just remember if both outputs are not being used you shouldn't have one output floating. Well you can but for absolute quality the unused output needs to be terminated with a high quality 75 Ohm terminator. Know a couple of techs who swear by them. Was thinking of getting one myself as this sort of kit can always be useful at times for a variety of monitoring situations. Not super cheap but quality kit and well worth the $$$'s in the long run.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFJEgwStjXE

990 series down the bottom of this page.

http://www.etslan.com/products.cgi?cat=2

Chris Young
Click to expand...

Hmmm... Although my 300 is definitely not my "A" s35 cam anymore, it may still be worth getting one of those.
 
ozmorphasis said:
Does a passive splitter of this type introduce any appreciable signal delay?
Click to expand...

No as they are passive so no processing delay. Any piece of equipment has a delay in practice. A piece of cable has a delay. In fact years back we used to use drums of cable to introduce delay. From memory it was about 5 nano seconds per meter. Through these splitters it would be in nano seconds. 1 Nano is 1.000,000,000, 10 to the power of -9 . Nothing the human eye will see. They would be useless in a broadcast situation if they introduced any appreciable delay.

Chris Young
 
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