Got a chance to put EX1 up against HVX

[Ted Spencer]

Very nice looking stuff! Coupla comments though, if I may:

In many of the shallow DOF shots there apears to be some extreme loss of edge sharpness on things apparently in the same focal plane as the in-focus center. I've got a Letus EX on order so this concerns me. Thoughts?

Almost all the shots are locked down. Only the first has some very slow panning. How are you finding the EX1 to be with camera movement re: some of the issues discussed in this thread?

Thanks for sharing the footage!

 

[Ducatimark]

Phillip -

How do you get yourself, tripod, and camera setup into the underground without attracting undue attention and having people do such a great job of not seeing you? Is it just ba*** and you say to yourself I don't care if anyone complains? Your work is always an inspiration and it amazes me how you can make everyday life look like a Hollywood feature. Is it just a matter of zooming from a distance?

Thanks for all the great material you post!

Mark

 

[ESTEBEVERDE]

I took my EX1 to the south bank in London yesterday and made a little short which you can see here: http://www.philipbloom.co.uk/Philip_Bloom/South_Bank%3A_Letus_and_EX1.html

I remember taking my HVX down there a year or so ago, I still have the footage and it looks nowhere near as good as this.

Any people who question how filmic the EX1 looks, I think this latest little thing I have done looks pretty damn filmic to me! Of course the Letus Extreme helps!!

What lenses did you use Philip?

It looks as if you might have use a tilt lens?


EDIT:

I assumed the page Philip posted his footage on was part of his blog.

But, after a bit of hunting I found this on a separate "Blog Page":

"The lenses I used were my Sigma f1.8 20mm, 35mm Arrax f2.8 tilt ****, 50mm Zeiss T2 macro, 85mm Hartblei tilt shift and my 105mm Nikon f2 DC."

 

[Kholi]

Very nice looking stuff! Coupla comments though, if I may:

In many of the shallow DOF shots there apears to be some extreme loss of edge sharpness on things apparently in the same focal plane as the in-focus center. I've got a Letus EX on order so this concerns me. Thoughts?

Almost all the shots are locked down. Only the first has some very slow panning. How are you finding the EX1 to be with camera movement re: some of the issues discussed in this thread?

Thanks for sharing the footage!

The extreme loss of edge sharpness is because he used TILT lenses on the footage. The dark corners and sides are an issue with the actual EX-1 lens. However, there's a way to compensate for the EX-1's lens with the Letus EX and it's being worked out.

 

[taormina]

Hey Philip, great footage!

A question: Did you apply color correction to this footage?

Nice stuff!

 

[philip bloom]

Very nice looking stuff! Coupla comments though, if I may:

In many of the shallow DOF shots there apears to be some extreme loss of edge sharpness on things apparently in the same focal plane as the in-focus center. I've got a Letus EX on order so this concerns me. Thoughts?

Almost all the shots are locked down. Only the first has some very slow panning. How are you finding the EX1 to be with camera movement re: some of the issues discussed in this thread?

Thanks for sharing the footage!

Yes it was using the two shift tilt lenses, quite a dramatic effect. It's obvious which ones, the ones where the focal perspective makes no sense!

Phillip -

How do you get yourself, tripod, and camera setup into the underground without attracting undue attention and having people do such a great job of not seeing you? Is it just ba*** and you say to yourself I don't care if anyone complains? Your work is always an inspiration and it amazes me how you can make everyday life look like a Hollywood feature. Is it just a matter of zooming from a distance?

Thanks for all the great material you post!

Mark

I got permission for Waterloo thanks to a friend and my connections, I had to make a deal to give some of the Waterloo footage in exchange. Even with my badge I got stopped at Waterloo about ten times!

Hey Philip, great footage!

A question: Did you apply color correction to this footage?

Nice stuff!

Yes all graded in Magic bullet Looks, using the mishandled negative preset in the film stock section, with some added vignettes and some grad filters/ grad exposure to compensate.

 

[taormina]

Amazing, Philip.

 

[Kholi]

Hey Bloom, I have ONE request (DVXuser to DVXuser) for your next video post: can you give us some footage minus post vignettes? I really want to see the LetusEX on the EX-1 in action minus vignettes?

Your EX-1 footage always makes me think twice about sellin' now and gettin' a new cam. Must wait for NAB.

 

[philip bloom]

75 percent is vignette free! anyway we should get back on topic. There is a thread talking about this in the 35mm forum!

 

[puredrifting]

Dan~

Are you talking about the on board mic or just the preamps?

~Estebe

The preamps. All built in-mics sound lousy, I am more interested in what happens when you plug a great mic into a great mixer, then output the sound to the EX-1. Sony has an almost unblemished record of horrendously bad audio in their under $10,000.00 camcorders and I am curious is the EX-1 breaks the curse.

Dan

 

[ESTEBEVERDE]

The preamps. All built in-mics sound lousy, I am more interested in what happens when you plug a great mic into a great mixer, then output the sound to the EX-1. Sony has an almost unblemished record of horrendously bad audio in their under $10,000.00 camcorders and I am curious is the EX-1 breaks the curse.

Dan

I kid you not.

Once I called Sony to get info about a particular line of their sound equipment and their very own rep... no joke said... well... I personally wouldn't get it as Sony doesn't really do sound... we do image.

No Joke.


I would be interested to hear the sound as well.

In fact... come to think of it... I don't know of any post with sound that has been captured in cam?!?!?!? :undecided


Oh yeah... I take that back... Philip's Religion series!

I came back to post that and Philip was kind enough to have already reminded me.

I asked him about it as I found the sound for the Scottish Protestant very well done and pleasing to the ear.


.

 

[philip bloom]

all my religion series was sound captured in camera. just interviews though

 

[robweiner]

I’ve had an HVX for two years, and recently spent a couple of days checking out an EX1. I have some thoughts about Barry’s post comparing the two. Barry’s remarks are in quotes.

“Sensitivity -- yep, the EX1 is more sensitive. How much? Depends on your tolerance for gain on the Sony, but overall, not a tremendous amount. It's about 1/2 stop more sensitive.”

"Now, the thing is, the Sony is quite a bit cleaner in noise, at least at low gain levels. You could go to 6dB of gain and the noise is about the same as the HVX, maybe a tad cleaner. Maybe you could go to 9dB of gain, although that might be pushing it. At 6dB of gain, the "effective" sensitivity improvement over the HVX is 1.5 stops. That's getting somewhere, that's noticeable. “

For my money, this is more than noticeable, this is HUGE. Many of you are also fond of 35mm adaptors. I can put my Letus on the Sony in 6db gain and STILL be near a full stop faster than a naked HVX. If you’ve seen the Picadilly or Times Square footage, you see what an amazing low light picture this makes.

“There were many things about the EX1 that were positives. The LCD is very sharp and the colored peaking is wonderful. The sharpness is great.”

I’m a big fan of being able to focus my camera. I HATED the LCD on the HVX from the first five minutes after taking it out of the box. What was Panny thinking? So I’ve tried to work off a 17” monitor or at least the Marshall since the beginning. The freedom gained by being able to work off an LCD when appropriate is wonderful.

“Secondly, it's impossible to hand-hold one-handed. You just can't do it. The fatboy HVX feels as light as an HV20, compared to the EX1. The ergonomics are astoundingly bad for handheld. I can't describe it to do it justice, you just have to experience it for yourself. You can manage okay with two hands (and I use the HVX with two hands), but just get used to the idea that you'll have to use two hands with the EX1.”

I always thought the HVX was the worst handheld camera I ever had, but the EX1 is the new reigning champ. But, please--the HVX like an HV20 in comparison? Since I have already migrated to using a monopod or two hands already, it doesn’t represent a change in work style.

“Okay, now onto my main gripe: SxS SuXS! It was infuriating to use; for anyone used to P2 I don't know how you could stand this.” “ One thing I do is I show how quickly you can go check your footage -- just pop into playback mode and play your clips. Takes about a second, maybe two. On the EX1 the same process takes 14 SECONDS. “

I would estimate that 90% of checking takes on the set consists of looking at the LAST TAKE. This takes about one to two seconds on the EX1, IF you use the Rec Review button.

“Okay, another thing I point out in training seminars is that even in the middle of playing back HVX footage, if something started happening that you need to record, you can just punch the record button and the camera will automatically jump into camera mode and start recording. Takes maybe 2 seconds.”

Again, if you are in Rec Review of the LAST TAKE, it takes one to two seconds on the EX!.

“Okay, what else... oh, the lens. Yes it has true manual zoom. Felt exactly like the HVX's. Yes it has manual focus. Other than hard stops it didn't do anything the HVX doesn't. Feels a little different, but gives the exact same result (but with less rotation). Iris ring was nice though, I do like that, everyone should have a proper iris ring. “

A major understatement on what is a tremendous improvement from an operator’s perspective.




“

The menu system is an interesting mix of give 'n' take. Very extensive menus with wonderful controls, seemed about comparable to the Canon XHA1/XLH1 in that respect. But navigating the menus is annoying because the little spinny wheel sometimes goes up when you tell it to go down,”

After a few minutes with the EX1, I realized that the “spinny wheel” is a far inferior navigation method to the joystick located near the LCD screen. Try it. You’ll never use the wheel again.

“About that "clutter": with the EX1 they have a "direct" menu where instead of going into the menus through the "menu" button, you use a miniature joystick to navigate around the on-screen displays -- when you click 'em it becomes a menu. I thought that was kind of clever, but some functions that should be on switches, aren't (like shutter speed? “

Shutter speed is indeed accessible through the “direct” menu. I just did it a minute ago to be sure. The menu structure is different than the HVX, and may take some getting used to, but I think it is actually more powerful and flexible.

“I dunno, folks, I mean, I can see some definite advantages (sharpness & noise mainly) but the tapeless SxS just comes off looking half-assed compared to the P2 workflow (forgive the crass term). I just don't know what clients I would recommend this product to. Interviews? Yes, definitely. ENG? No way. Weddings? Absolutely not.”

Barry, you’re completely ignoring 1.5-2 stops low light performance because you MIGHT get a rolling shutter artifact? We lived with vertical smear on chip cameras for ENG for years. You would rather watch a 30 minute wedding ceremony that you almost can’t see on the HVX because it’s so dark, that would look gorgeous on the EX1? Have you seen the footage inside Notre Dame? Amazing.

“I'm hoping to get some more time with it later in the month where I can put it through some more tests.”

Barry, I really do hope you do get the time with the camera, because I suspect some of your observations were hampered by insufficient evaluation time.

“Right now I'd say it's six of one, half dozen of the other. I think the HVX is a lot more workable and usable, and it's a lot less expensive. “

Regarding the usablility issue--does anyone love the fact that when we are facing the “proper” orientation to the HVX joystick, the LCD is usually oriented the wrong way and must be flipped and pasted to the side of the camera? I hate that.

How about when we change frame rates, and clips won’t play unless we change the frame rate back in the camera first? The Sony has a momentary jiggle of about 1 second and plays right through all frame rates. It’s also got a full VCR style touch pad as well as a joystick.


People were paying a premium of almost $3,000 for the version of the Canons that had HD-SDI out over the non-HD-SDI version. It’s right there in the EX1. It’s a single BNC connector and it’s clean as hell. If you want to record to an external VCR, it’s 10 bit HD-SDI out. Anyone out there love that Component connector on their HVX? I don’t.

The Picture Profile menus are incredibly extensive, and EACH parameter has 200 increments of adjustability.

The lens is 14x1 versus 12x1 on the HVX. And the chips are 1/2” versus 1/3” on the HVX. Throwing backgrounds out of focus should be SIGNIFICANTLY easier on the EX1.

And finally, cost. As I write this, B&H has the HVX for $5200 with one 16gig card included and additonal cards are $900 per 16gig.

The EX1 is $6450 with 2 8gig cards included and additional cards are $900 per 16gig.

So, the HVX is $6100 with 32 gigs versus $7350 for the Sony. So the HVX is $1250 cheaper with an equal amount of storage. I’m not sure I would call that “a lot less expensive.”

Now, I previously owned 2 8gig cards and then 2 16gig cards. I did almost all of my work at 24PN or 30PN because I usually needed the longer runtimes for the type of production days I do. I got quite fast at downloading cards in the field, but I wasn’t wanting to download twice as often and I wasn’t convinced I needed 1080, so I didn’t use it much.

But Barry has always been a fan of 1080 and usually recommended it if people could manage it. With the 32 gig packages quoted above, you could shoot 32 minutes with the HVX before needing to download, or 100 minutes with the EX1. It’s THREE TIMES the runtime folks!! So, even if Barry’s right about the ingest times being equal for P2 and SxS, you only need to download ONE THIRD as often. With 100 minutes of runtime, most days I could do the download while we’re wrapping and be done before the gear is put away.

Or, you could buy 4 more 16gig P2 cards for $3600, but then you are at $9700 versus $7350 for the Sony. Talk about a lot less expensive.

Anyway, if you’ve read this far, thanks for listening. I hope it was informative or useful in some way.

Barry, the website you’ve created here is an incredibly valuable thing. I’ve learned a ton here, and you’ve helped educate a lot of folks about the tools that are out there. Give the camera a second look, and let us know what you think.

Thanks.

Rob

 

[Kholi]

Thanks for the post, Rob. What kind of work do you do?

 

[puredrifting]

A good friend of mine recently had a chance to spend two days with the EX-1. This friend is not really a professional shooter but definitely is up to speed with the HVX as owns one and has shot with it.

His remarks were that the EX-1 blows away the HVX in sharpness when the shot is still. He also remarked the same thing Barry did about the ergonomics or lack of. He remarked that, "the picture loses all of it's detail when the camera moves. Why does it do that?"

I know for a fact that my friend does not read camera forums and he was just more curious about what all of the buzz about the EX-1 was. He borrowed it for two days, shot a ton of footage. His end appraisal was that although it has some nice features, he felt the long GOP 4:2:0 format was very substandard to DVCProHD and that he could not live with the lack of detail/softness on moving shots. He is keeping his HVX (which he hardly ever shoots with anyway). He is more of an editor.

Thought it was interesting that several of his observations were almost word for word the same as Barry's comments.

I am going to have to get my hands on an EX-1 to run some audio tests. Other than Philip shot his interviews with the EX-1, I have heard nothing about if the EX-1 breaks the Sony "under $10k horrible sound" curse that has plagued all of the lower end Sonys for close to a decade now.

Best,

Dan

 

[thefilmaddict]

I switched from the HVX200 to the EX1. I was going to write a review, but Rob took the words right out of my head!

Regardless, here is a summary of my thoughts:

1. The lens is great. It's nice having a proper focus, iris and zoom ring.

2. The EX1 LCD screen is amazing. I had to carry the Marshall with me while using the HVX200. Now I leave it at home. It truly frees the operator.

3. The extra resolution is very nice. Images pop on my 50 inch HD TV (even wide shots). The HVX200 look was good, but soft compared to the EX1. I always brought my detail level down on the HVX200 because I hated the artificial noise it caused in the image. That made the Panasonic image a little softer. I also turn the detail down on the EX1 (which softens the image as well), but there is plenty of sharpness left in the picture. That's just my preference. I am sure most of you are fine with the detail level at default on both cameras.

4. The compression/longer record time is a plus with the EX1. It really looks good at 35 Mbps (better than I thought possible). I have not been able to break the codec, but I also have a very conservative shooting style. I look forward to shooting some action shots in the future when it gets warmer here. I will report my findings, but XDCAM seems to hold just fine.

5. Editing XDCAM is pretty easy in Final Cut Pro. I've edited HDV in the past and it sucked big time. XDCAM works fine. Do I miss DVCPRO HD, not really, but I still use it all the time at work. I am not putting it down. I just want you to know that XDCAM works well, too.

6. The SDI out is huge on the EX1. At work I use the AVID Nitris. It was (as far as I know) impossible to import HVX footage into the system (no firewire on that high end system). Now I just hook the EX1 HD SDI out to the Avid and capture live. This is a big help. HD SDI will also be a big help if I want to bypass the SXS card and capture higher quality footage live to an external drive in the future. I don't need that now, but it is nice to have the option.

7. As far as the out of box look (scene files), the HVX has better cine gamma presets IMHO, but the EX can be modified to look just as good (lots of changeable settings). Here's a picture profile that I like:

MATRIX - CINEMA - LEVEL +40
GAMMA - LEVEL: -15 - CINE 3
BLACK: -5
LOW KEY SAT: +10

It's a high color, more contrasty look. The gamma adds a lot of mojo to the image.

8. As far as resolution dropping on pans, I don't see it. I will continue to test for that. I've always found (on all 24p cameras) that you have to be conservative with your camera movement at default 24p shutter settings. That's just the nature of the beast.

9. If you read my HVX200 posts from early last year, I was always critical of how the HVX200 did in low light and macro blocking (I think thats what it's called when dark gradients get blocky). I don't see that with the EX1 (not yet anyway). I've shot a bunch of test footage using candles. It looks amazingly clean. I guess that's the result of the 1/2" chips. That's important to me.

10. I like the -9Db gain. All cameras should have this option. It helps open up the iris out doors and further limiting depth of field (something I am always trying to do).

11. I am not a fan of the problems that rolling shutters can cause, but it is not a problem for me with this camera. I don't shoot videos with lots of camera flashes. If I did, I could easily correct them in post.

12. I am also not a fan of some of the buttons and plastic covers on the camera. They seem a little cheap to me (The SDI cover and the DC IN for example).

13. I do like the joystick. I find it makes navigating through menus fast. Not everyone agrees with me on this, but I do have small fingers and you know what that means...huh?

14. The camera stinks for handheld. Like the HVX, it's not very balanced. The swivel zoom handle makes 2 hand waist level shooting easier. I guess that's a minor improvement.

15. As far as camera work flow, it works a lot like the HVX200. I did not read the Sony manual yet, but using my knowledge of the how the HVX200 works, switching to the Sony is not difficult. Both cameras really make going back to a tape based camera a sickening thought!

16. The Record Review button is super fast for checking your last recorded shot. I use it a lot. Switching the camera between CAMERA and MEDIA mode is a little slower on the Sony, but it's really no big deal (for me). How impatient can you be? We are just talking a matter of seconds.

17. As far as sound, I have only used the on camera microphone. It sounded fine. I will do more testing. Blooms stuff sounded good.

18. The slow shutter effect is neat. It looks great on time lapse.

19. The variable frame rates, like the HVX, are really cool.

That's all I can think of off the top of my head.

------------

I wish people would quit fighting about which camera is better (especially those who have not tested each camera in person). They are both great cameras, I just prefer the Sony (right now). The good news is that competing companies keep raising the bar. We (the consumers) win. Affordable HD cameras are getting better and better in a short period of time (much faster than the evolution of SD cameras).

I can't wait for the RED guys to release their camera. I am also hoping and betting that Panasonic's next camera will raise the bar even higher. Panasonic makes great gear.

Overall, It's an exciting time to be an indie filmmaker. Our equipment keeps getting better and better. It still requires great talent, hard work and a little luck, but it's nice to know our paint brushes can compete with the big boys.

Enough ranting. I hope this helps.

 

[ESTEBEVERDE]

Guys... can we see some shots that start static for a few seconds and then pan and go back to static for a few seconds?

I keep hearing about all of this blurriness but haven't seen any clips with it?

 

[DCSensui]

Filmaddict makes some very valid points. And having tried the camera myself for a day, and doing some rough comparisons with my own HVX, I have to agree with many of his points.

I produce a fishing show. The coverage is somewhat like that of a reality or news show. Lots of handheld work. Not much chance to set up lights. And coverage often demands a camera to be able to get a decent quality shot under adverse conditions. From daybreak to twilight. You just never know when the fish are gonna bite.

I also do production work where a lighting director and a grip will rig 2K's and other instruments from a truckload of gear. So the camera needs to be able to record shots that have been set up with a great deal of care.

The image is cleaner than the HVX and has more detail. From what little I tested regarding motion artifacts the long GOP codec seemed to hold up well with lots of changing detail. I expected the codec to fail and this was a pleasant surprise.

The ability to record three times as much per gigabyte is very important. Especially if I sometimes end up shooting as much as 160 minutes of material in a day. If the camera comes with two 8-gig cards, then I just need to pick up two more 16-gig cards to give me enough capacity to cover almost all of what I might do in a day.

Compare that to an HVX: I'd have to get five 32-gig cards to do the same. And archiving would also take three times as much space.

I didn't notice any unacceptable loss of sharpness during any panning but Barry did. And if he said it's there then there's something there. Just need to find out what it is and if it's severe enough to be a major concern. Unfortunately I read about it after I returned the camera and couldn't test it for myself.

As for the rolling shutter problem with vertical lines, I was able to get an unacceptable amount of vertical line distortion but it came with an unacceptable rate of panning or shaking. In other words, I would have rejected the shot even if there weren't any rolling shutter distortion.

The additional sensitivity over the HVX is a welcome characteristic. As is the ability to set an 18 dB gain. While it's certainly noisy when boosted to that level, it beats getting nothing at all under those circumstances.

The zoom is capable of moving both slower and faster than the HVX. Doing a slow, dramatic push-in or pull-out is no longer a problem. And zooming-in to focus is a lot quicker than the HVX.

With a "real" aperature ring, making slight adjustments in exposure is easier. And since it seems to be controlling a real iris, there isn't that annoying stepping of exposure that other cameras have, including the HVX, the PD-170 and XL1s.

By itself, it's a lousy handheld camera. It's impossible for any camera this size to be held comfortably because the handle is too far off-axis. The handle would have to be placed directly under the center of gravity and you can imagine what that would end up looking like. I'm planning to use it with a shoulder mount. I already do the same with the HVX. Both cameras are much less stable without one.

My biggest misgiving is the lack of a pre-record cache. Rumor has it that it will be added in a future firmware upgrade. But I'll take it for what it is and simply assume that will never happen. It's not a deal killer since I worked without one all these years, until I got the HVX. But it would be a welcome addition if it does get incorporated into the EX1.

After all that, did I buy one? Not yet. But I'm in the process of getting one as soon as the financing is approved.

As for the HVX, I'm keeping it and will continue to work with it. We do two-camera shoots once in a while for our cooking and tackle tips segments, and it should intercut just fine as the close-up camera. It'll also be used to do any green screen work unless the EX1 is proven to handle that task as well as the HVX.

They're both fine cameras and there's nothing inherently terrible about either of them. They're head and shoulders above any SD cameras. And, considering what it costs to get better equipment, the are reasonable solutions that allow producers at my level to get some real work done in this format.

 

[Noel Evans]

Guys... can we see some shots that start static for a few seconds and then pan and go back to static for a few seconds?

I keep hearing about all of this blurriness but haven't seen any clips with it?

Full res

 

[Mark Smith]

I had my hands on an EX yesterday for a while and got acquainted.

Very nice LCD screen compared to the HVX. The good news is that it has a pivoting hand grip which is also the bad news as it places the hand grip too far from the CG of the camera, which really torques the right wrist a lot if you are not using a 2 handed shooting style.

There is something funny going on with the image when there is movement combined with lots of detail: the camera can't quite hold the detail and the movement , so it throws away the detail till things settle down a bit.

Several aspects of the camera seem "toy" like the media, and the size and amount of buttons covering the camera. P2 cards are physically pretty robust while the Sony media seems like its in a pretty flimsy package in comparison.
There are many small buttons for operational stuff and I think the chances for inadvertently bumping something are much greater. THe Audio level controls are just plain wrong and will get mis adjusted quite a bit by accident.

The rolling shutter artifacts are there, its bound to become a style.

Sony still is grasping for a way to design menus, but the one thing that is nice is it is possible to use the joy stick to change a single setting without going into the main menu.