Good things for HMC-XXX Sonys new NXCAM!

[Cranky]

Well, 1080/30pN and 720/30pN are outside of the original AVCHD specification too. They were never included. 720/24pN and 1080/24pN were there from day one, but 30pN wasn't. So there is at least one variation there outside of the AVCHD specification.

30p is not in AVCHD spec because it was not in Blu-ray spec, and AVCHD is watered down Blu-ray. (Funny, 30p was in HD-DVD spec). BTW, Blu-ray allows AVC, MPEG-2 and VC-1. Considering this, will Sony, um, "extend" AVCHD by allowing MPEG-2 streams, at least for SD, or will MPEG-2 SD be recorded somewhere else, outside of AVCHD directory tree? This can indeed cause incompatibility with NLEs and Blu-ray players. It is possible to create an AVCHD-formatted disc or card with MPEG-2 HD stream, some players play it, other do not.

 

[Kellar42]

I know full HD is a gimmick, Barry, I thought full raster meant there had to be that many pixels on the chip.

Fortunately, NXCAM offers full-raster 720p and full-raster 1080i/p (in addition to subsampled 1080 formats, and SD formats encoded with MPEG2). If you live the USA or other (ex-)NTSC country, this first NXCAM will start out (“off-the-shelf”) with the standard ±60Hz-derived formats:

Full-raster 1080 (1920x1080) at 59.94i, 29.97p (truly native), or 23.976p (truly native)
Subsampled 1080 (1440x1080) 59.94i

 

[Xian Messerschmidt]

I don't know that they're calling the camera "full HD", they're calling the recording format "full hd" or "full raster".

"Full HD" is a marketing term anyways.

I always hear the term "full raster" thrown around by my EX-1 owning buddies. Is there interpolation going on with the EX-1 too or is it a "true" 1920x1080 chip?

 

[Joe Calabrese]

I always hear the term "full raster" thrown around by my EX-1 owning buddies. Is there interpolation going on with the EX-1 too or is it a "true" 1920x1080 chip?

Yes, the EX series has a full 1920x1080 1/2" CMOS chip. It has its positives and negatives. The CMOS is not the problem for me, its the outdated formats Sony still uses.

 

[Crimson_Fluid]

What I really like about this camera is that the lcd and viewfinder will be superior. To me that's a huge advantage and the 4:2:2 is a nice addition too. Guess we'll have to see what the actual price will be.

 

[Barry_Green]

and the 4:2:2 is a nice addition too.

What 4:2:2? All AVCHD is 4:2:0.

 

[NEEL]

Here is a comparison of the HMC 150 and the Z5:

http://dvuser.tv/content.php?CID=207

The Z5 seems to look somehow softer than the HMC and according to the test the lenses aren't as good as the HMC ones.

So if Sony didnt change these specs, how should the picture of the NXCAM become more sharper and crispier than the HMC's? Maybe I am wrong, but I guess the HMC will have the potential to outperform the NXCAM picturewise...

 

[David Saraceno]

With the KiPro, you can output pro res 4:2:2 out HD SDI from the cam

 

[Cranky]

Here is a comparison of the HMC 150 and the Z5:

http://dvuser.tv/content.php?CID=207

The Z5 seems to look somehow softer than the HMC and according to the test the lenses aren't as good as the HMC ones.

The 150 may have better lens, but its chip is lower res.

At first glance the Z5’s images look a trifle softer than the HMC151, but this is due to the 151’s edge-sharpening being set to +3 by default. I only did some basic testing while I had both the Sony Z5 and Panasonic HMC151 together during the same week. I filmed my DSC labs Chroma DuMonde resolution chart to check sharpness and resolution/detail etc. The Panasonic HMC151 sits about halfway between the Sony Z1 and Z5 in overall image quality. Considering the HMC151 is about £1,400 cheaper than the Z5 with its add-on CF card reader, the results are fair and to be expected. On close inspection you can see that the Sony Z5 pips the Panasonic at the post for resolution also; this is due to Panasonic's choice of low-res chips and pixel-shifting to 'faux' a HD image in the 151. The Sony is slightly better for overall detail.

This was surprising to me:

The Panasonic eye-level viewfinder is superior to the Sony Z5. Focusing on the Panasonic is easier because of this

The Z5 has hi-res 1MPixel LCOS EVF, which should be way better than one on the 150. It also has hi-res 900K Pixel LCD screen.

 

[Barry_Green]

The Z5 seems to look somehow softer than the HMC and according to the test the lenses aren't as good as the HMC ones.

Read it again; he's saying the HMC151 was sharper than the Z1, but not as sharp as the Z5. He attributed the initial "sharper" perception to the HMC150's detail level being cranked up to +3.

So if Sony didnt change these specs, how should the picture of the NXCAM become more sharper and crispier than the HMC's? Maybe I am wrong, but I guess the HMC will have the potential to outperform the NXCAM picturewise...

There's a lot more to the picture than just the sharpness! But based on sharpness alone, I would expect the NXCAM to be sharper. The Z5 he was testing was a little sharper, and the Z5 is subsampled to 1440x1080. When using a full-raster 1920x1080 codec, any additional detail the Z5 can generate should be recorded too.

Of course, that's just speculation and the actual proof will be in side-by-side testing, but I think that reviewer did a pretty solid job.

 

[bill totolo]

I hate to be one of these "this camera vs that camera" guys, but if you were comparing the NXCam to the EX1-R?

Any thoughts?

 

[Barry_Green]

Neither one is on the market yet.

However, I think the comparison will likely be pretty close -- Adam Wilt says the Z5 is about 400 ISO, the EX1 is 400 ISO (in 1080p mode). The EX1 is 800 ISO in 1080i mode, so if shooting 1080i it'd be twice as sensitive).

The codec, if Sony implemented it properly, should actually be superior on the NXCAM.

The recording media will of course be cheaper, you don't need SxS cards or adapters or whatever.

For noise, the EX1 should be 3dB to 6dB cleaner than the NXCAM.

For sharpness, they'll probably be pretty close; perhaps an edge to the EX1.

For lens control, the EX1 wins, even though both have three rings, the EX1 has a pure manual feel to it.

The EX1 has variable frame rates, the NXCAM that we've heard of so far doesn't (although who knows, since it's not due until next year, maybe there'll be more features announced?)

The 1/2" chips will give a small DOF advantage to the EX1, but the NX has a 20x zoom, so pick your poison there.

And of course the EX1 will cost more. So its main advantages appear to be cleaner images and variable frame rates and the feel of the manual controls on the lens. The NX is less expensive, probably competitive in many ways, and has stuff like GPS and whatever.

But, again, it's all speculation since you're looking at comparing spec sheets against spec sheets and neither product is actually on the market.

 

[Cranky]

* NXCAM has dual MSProDuo slots, the HMC150 and the HMC40 each have only one SD slot.
* NXCAM has high res LCD and EVF. BTW, Sony says that the HMC150 is not zero-overscan, is this true?
* NXCAM has an optional 128GB "brick"-type flash recorder, a pretty lame thing to my mind. They should have simply offer 4 card slots.
* Obviously Vegas has no problem working with NXCAM footage including PCM audio.

Screenshots are from Sony's online EXPO presentation.

 

[Thomas Lew]

The LCD monitor being placed on top bothers me. Maybe I'm just so rooted in having it directly to the side on my hmc'

:bath:

 

[NEEL]

Read it again; he's saying the HMC151 was sharper than the Z1, but not as sharp as the Z5. He attributed the initial "sharper" perception to the HMC150's detail level being cranked up to +3.

Ooops... You got me, I mixed up two different reviews. In this German review it is said that the Z5 looks a little bit softer than the HMC, though. They are also saying that there is more chromatic aberration from the lenses of the Z5:

http://www.film-tv-video.de/testdetails+M5093eca819f.html?&tx_ttnews[day]=23&tx_ttnews[month]=10&tx_ttnews[year]=2008

There's a lot more to the picture than just the sharpness! But based on sharpness alone, I would expect the NXCAM to be sharper. The Z5 he was testing was a little sharper, and the Z5 is subsampled to 1440x1080. When using a full-raster 1920x1080 codec, any additional detail the Z5 can generate should be recorded too.

Well, I guess you are right. The Z5 is obviously subsampled to 1440x1080 whereas the HMC is upsampled or pixelshiftet to some 1440x810 as you mentioned before. On the other hand, the NXCAM might need more bandwith for PCM-Audio, but no idea if or how this might touch the overall picture quality...

Of course, that's just speculation and the actual proof will be in side-by-side testing, but I think that reviewer did a pretty solid job.

In fact I love my HMC for its picture quality and will keep on doing so, even if this pretty girl NXCAM is coming down the road... :beer:

 

[Bucknfl]

I'm happy to see Sony coming out with a hd camera that uses low cost tapless media. They are still behind Panasonic and it will be interesting to see what Panasonic comes up with next. Personally I'd like to see Panasonic develop an hd camera with bigger chips that records to sd cards.

 

[Cranky]

On the other hand, the NXCAM might need more bandwith for PCM-Audio, but no idea if or how this might touch the overall picture quality.

Interesting, does 24 Mbit/s cap for AVCHD include audio? On the other hand, AVCHD video from Sony's consumers cameras looks really good, and it is only 16 Mbit/s.

 

[Barry_Green]

Interesting, does 24 Mbit/s cap for AVCHD include audio?

AFAIK, yes. So unless they're stepping outside the spec somehow, the larger size for PCM audio should probably take away some of the video bandwidth. Nothing wrong with that as long as the user knows what tradeoff he's making; having worked with an HMC150 for a year I don't think there's anything wrong with the AC3 audio for dialogue recording at all, and I'd rather have the extra bandwidth thrown at the video.

But if I was recording a concert or something, from a tripod, I might very well want to choose higher audio quality and give up a few video megabits to get it.

 

[Denwa]

Having recorded concert audio on the HMC I have not heard a noticeable quality difference.

That said, it would be nice to have some audio recording options.

How do they handle this on AVCHD's big brother AVC-I and do you think they we will ever be recording AVC-I 100 or 50 onto SD type cards with future cameras? I could totally see this happening with class 10 cards and the new card formats coming out.

 

[Derrick_SA]

The NXCAM also seems to have a very functional remote option! where you can basically control anything on the cam.

- derrick