GH4 GLOBAL SHUTTER shooters, anyone?

W

wwjd

Well-known member
(as topic relates to my GH4 that has ROLLING SHUTTER)

Rolling shutter has bitten me a few times - things unfixable in post like grabbing a still image from an action shot - and I been jonesing for GLOBAL SHUTTER ever since the initial BM 4K camera was talking about it. After BM failed to deliver I got the GH4 and am STILL very happy with it.... except the rolling shutter.

I am immorally fixated on going global shutter! And I don't know why. I'm aware modern camera's rolling has gotten much BETTER, but knowing GLOBAL is out there, keeps me up at night. And I could have it! Tomorrow! Just press that order button!!!!!!

BlackMagic offers a couple 4K versions with GLOBAL SHUTTER at the sacrifice of dynamic range, and there are like two other cams out there below 10K that have it...

My question is: Does anyone here actually SHOOT with GLOBAL SHUTTER and what has the experience been like?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_large_sensor_interchangeable-lens_video_cameras
 
I'm just winding down from a similar preoccupation and my suggestion is not to get sucked in. Global shutter is not particularly well-implemented in sub-$10K cameras in 2019.

Case in point: I ended up buying the BlackMagic Production Camera last year to scratch the itch. The global shutter was glorious, but that was about the only thing that camera did right. The sensor had fixed pattern noise even at its lowest ISO (200) and an odd pulsating flicker. It had the lowest dynamic range I've worked with since the HVX200 days. Also, the "raw" on that camera had less latitude than the AVCHD out of my C100. If I remember correctly, I did some tests and could only recover 1 stop of overexposure and zero stops of underexposure. I tried to make the camera work by kitting it out and installing a MagicBooster but ultimately decided that it wasn't worth the trouble; that the images I was getting from rolling shutter CMOS was a lot better looking. I sold it at a significant loss.

Here's some fast-moving test footage from my time with that camera: https://vimeo.com/313725956

Your other large sensor options under $10K:

  • Sony F35/9000PL (the best and ones I've had my eye on for years -- but I just can't make a business case for a large, heavy, power-hungry, ISO 400 camera with no audio)
  • BlackMagic Ursa (same sensor as the BMPC, probably the same problems)
  • BlackMagic Ursa Mini 4K (same sensor as the BMPC, probably the same problems)
  • Aja Cion (rumored to be the same sensor as the BMPC, but possibly with even less DR)
  • Digital Bolex (an expensive ISO 200 camera with a smaller sensor)
  • IndieCam indieGS4K (basically a sensor in a box designed to be a crash cam; I sent the company two inquiries about using it for digital cinematography and they ignored me)

Beyond that, it's all ENG and consumer CCD cameras (one that I've had a lot of fun with is the FZ47, which you can buy for about $100, but it's fixed lens and only shoots 30 fps).

So, yeah, it's not a worthwhile pursuit in my opinion. Hopefully it will be in the next wave of cameras now that we've hit a plateau in terms of image quality.
 
I have a lot of GS experience, and it wasn't by choice.

I was a dedicated 'Blackmagic guy' at one point in my life, and like most BM users you bought each new camera that was released. Most started with the BMCC or Pocket - and then eventually bought a BMPC (GS) - and then some went for the big URSA (first 4K/60p from BM) - and then most probably ended with an URSA Mini 4.6K or UMP (at least for now).

I owned the URSA for the longest period of time and it pretty much changed my life.

You see...I always dreamed about owning a RED but couldn't afford it back then. I would put items in the shopping cart - and read every piece of text on their site - and think about how nice it would be to own all of this stuff. That was the beautiful thing about RED; they made it a possibility for many people but the cameras were still just a bit too much...and you'd continue to dream.

In 2014 - after I purchased the URSA - I felt like I was happy with the quality of my videos for the first time in my life. The dynamic range was extremely limited and the max ISO of 400 was heartbreaking (like mentioned above), but something about the quality was just so beautifully simple.

Back then my reasoning for my newfound happiness was resolution and color science. I didn't even know what a global shutter was if I'm being completely honest.

But now after more than half a decade of reflection, I truly think I was actually in love with the motion more than anything. The way this system captured movement (even static frames) was very pleasing. I'll never really know and you could only assume, right? But if it were up to me, I think everyone should own or use a GS camera for a little bit and see if they experience any difference.

Now even though everything I said about it is 110% true, my priorities for a operating a camera have changed and it no longer matters to me what I really like because filming is now strictly about making money and there other tools that do the job better for me.

If you're interested in experimenting (or have any questions), here's one for your consideration:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?364716-bmpc

I highly recommend trying this camera at least once (rent it?) if you can.

(And these cameras definitely have FPN, but in my experience it depends on the particular unit and I also have never found any at ISO 200.)
 
wwjd said:
(as topic relates to my GH4 that has ROLLING SHUTTER)

Rolling shutter has bitten me a few times - things unfixable in post like grabbing a still image from an action shot - and I been jonesing for GLOBAL SHUTTER ever since the initial BM 4K camera was talking about it. After BM failed to deliver I got the GH4 and am STILL very happy with it.... except the rolling shutter.

I am immorally fixated on going global shutter! And I don't know why. I'm aware modern camera's rolling has gotten much BETTER, but knowing GLOBAL is out there, keeps me up at night. And I could have it! Tomorrow! Just press that order button!!!!!!

BlackMagic offers a couple 4K versions with GLOBAL SHUTTER at the sacrifice of dynamic range, and there are like two other cams out there below 10K that have it...

My question is: Does anyone here actually SHOOT with GLOBAL SHUTTER and what has the experience been like?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_large_sensor_interchangeable-lens_video_cameras
Click to expand...
All of the recent Oscar movies shot digitally worked around rolling shutter. So, at least you can sleep.

But yes, i ultimately agree. Global shutter could be a major selling point once brands see it as a profitable venture. Global shutter is superior. Until then...
 
thanks, quickhit, norbro, james! this is perfect feedback. I been talking myself down from Global for about 5 years now. and your feedback helps a lot to keep me sane.

As I search new info, I am noticing a lot more global shutter sensors and cameras "in devlopment". maybe it'll be the next buzzword explosion after HDR settles down and resolution has topped out. I don't fall for fads as much as legitimate development improvements. With tech and processing speeds ever increasing, shouldn't be too long now.
 
Funny how global shutter is such a holy grail now when we had it on CCD based cameras for decades. I honestly don't pay much attention to it anymore. It drove me nuts at first but now it doesn't bother me all that much anymore. Like has been stated most Hollywood productions are shot with a rolling shutter so it's not the end of the world really.

I would of course prefer we have it but not at the expense of dynamic range and sensitivity. m43 already struggles with those and making them worse is not a good solution. CMOS has a ton of other advantages that offset that one single con.

With that said if Panasonic ever does anything with the organic sensor then we may be able to have it all including built in variable ND filtering.
 
yeah, I was recalling the OLD stuff was inherently global. Shame they didn't work that out FIRST instead of cutting corners and going rolling shutter. probably to cut costs, of course.

Well, I can hold off another 5 yuears easily now. STILL love the GH4. It matched well with a camera 20 times its price, so I'm very fine with it.

Eventually, the 16K Global shutter, see in the dark, 20 DR cameras will be cheap. I can wait :D Maybe. Maybe that silly BM P4K until then
 
Given the used price of a BMPC 4K, I'm not sure why you wouldn't want to play with one (especially if you have such a desire for a GS).

They are nickels and dimes now. And I'm not even talking about the one I am trying to sell above. You can probably find one for $100-$200 less (although most likely not as in good shape).
 
wwjd said:
... As I search new info, I am noticing a lot more global shutter sensors and cameras "in devlopment"...
Click to expand...
They're being developed for the lower resolution, lower dynamic range - and, often, monochromatic - "machine vision" applications. In other words, when robots take over the world, it will be in the appropriate global shutter.
 
It’s funny, a few years ago no one knew what “global shutter” was, well, because all of our cameras had it(at least at the broadcast level, because all of our cameras were CCD). We didn’t need a term for it, it’s just how things were.

All of my VariCam’s(tape & OG P2) are CCD, so they’re global by default. My F55 is GS, too. My only real camera that isn’t, is my C300 and it’s actually my least used camera. I think GS is a huge deal. I shoot a lot of sports and am around a lot of still photogs with strobes firing away, a lot. I HATE flash banding. And hate is probably too soft of a word. We’re to the point, at least with higher end cameras, that skew isn’t much of a problem anymore, unless you are really whipping it, but flash banding is still there and ranks up there with vertical video.

If someone offered me up two cameras that were exactly the same, except one had 16 stops and RS or 15 stops and GS, and I could only take one, I’d take the GS.

There’s a reason I spent more money to get an F55 over the F5.
 
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On the subject of dynamic range, I think I would settle for 12 stops.

The Blackmagic cameras with global shutter had 12, but I read that they were plagued by fixed-pattern noise. Older DSLRs like the Canon 5D also had around 12, even a smidge less, yet they looked stellar when you shot in RAW. I've measured the dynamic range of scenes and keep coming up with 11-12, even in extreme situations.

Now if a camera had global shutter and 13 stops, like the Blackmagic Pocket, then I would be happy as a clam.

One thing I don't miss about CCD is vertical blooming.
 
Yeah I would love something with no rolling shutter.

On the cheap end the Black Magic Ursa 4K looks very interesting. Pretty cheap these days too.

If a camera came out with a genuine 11-12 stops of dynamic range and not terrible high iso performance that would be more than usable.
 
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