Ghosting and Trails?

Now that there are a few cams out there now. Has anyone come across this issue?
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I'd like to hear about this as well... I don't think you can discount a potential problem because it wasn't shot under ideal circumstances... A "professional" camera needs to function in less-than-ideal conditions, not just on a set... We would be going back to the dark ages of filmmaking if that weren't true.

I intentionally ordered my camera for March, and this is the kind of stuff I want to know about before buy one, and start shooting a film in April.
 
I havent seen any of these issues, so it makes me a little curious if he figured it out. Although I haven't really shot much with it.
 
Plenty wrong with this thread I can say that much. A dodgy still pulled from a moving camera / object that we have no idea of the speed. If that hand flashed through frame to get that effect to occur (and lets assume for a moment this is what happens), who gives two hoots. We are told nothing of contributing factors such as settings and lens being used.

In addition the AF100 does have what amounts to noise reduction - Its called detail coring - you can read more about detail coring in a Barry Braverman article here http://cinematographyskills.com/keep-the-noise-down-will-ya/
 
After about a month of use I have sold the af100. The issue seems to be with all af100's. I know allot of you don't see this information as any use and thats fine but I see it and feel that if this does not happen while using a 799 dlsr why should it happen with a 5k video camera. Yes, I know of all the other issues with the DSLR's so please save it. None of my other panasonic cameras have this issue(HVX,HPX,DVx Andro). After comparing footage from many other cameras I feel the video look of the af100's motion could be do to this issue. There are many satisfied af100 customers and thats great and the issue isn't a big deal to most but for me it was and I hope future panasonic cameras do not have this problem.
 
Neil Burner said:
After about a month of use I have sold the af100. The issue seems to be with all af100's. I know allot of you don't see this information as any use and thats fine but I see it and feel that if this does not happen while using a 799 dlsr why should it happen with a 5k video camera. Yes, I know of all the other issues with the DSLR's so please save it. None of my other panasonic cameras have this issue(HVX,HPX,DVx Andro). After comparing footage from many other cameras I feel the video look of the af100's motion could be do to this issue. There are many satisfied af100 customers and thats great and the issue isn't a big deal to most but for me it was and I hope future panasonic cameras do not have this problem.
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It's really too bad that you weren't able to find a solution for this, Neil.
If the ghosting/trails are the same as what I saw on my hpx370 (before the update), then I would agree that it's not something you can just get over. It's gross when it shows up. And i've seen it show up in controlled interview situations. Is there any chance you could post a video sample so that other users can understand what you are seeing? I'm still surprised that no one is paying attention to this!
 
Me too!

I'm also a little surprised no one else appears to doubt that this camera resolves 800 lines...

Our AF adventure may be drawing to a close, too...
 
Flotsam said:
Me too!

I'm also a little surprised no one else appears to doubt that this camera resolves 800 lines...

Our AF adventure may be drawing to a close, too...
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I tried to measure mine on a chart. Looked like less than 800 to me, more like 700-750 and not substantially better than my 7D. Just without the moire. The DVinfo thread is saying 625...
 
Adam Wilt, Art Adams and I saw 700 lines in our testing. This was with Detail and V. Detail at -7.
 
Personally Im not surprised Barry hasnt weighed in on this.
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Really? I feel and as others do as well that there is a very valid concern with this issue. Sorry you don't see this information as informative but unneeded comments are no help either.
 
Personally I'm getting a little fed up with every morning coming in and seeing some new crisis. Oh no, there's horrible chroma clipping!!! (even though it's exactly the same as it has been on every Panasonic camcorder since at least 2008, and I can't think of any complaint from any DVX, HVX, HPX, or HMC user about it). Oh no, there's horrific noise!!! (even though there isn't, and I can get it practically grainless at 3200 ISO, fer cryin' out loud). Oh no, it strobes so much more than anything else!!! (even though that's impossible, and it doesn't, and we heard these exact same complaints on the DVX until I put a 16mm camera next to it and verified that it absolutely renders motion identically to film). Oh no, the LCD is a horrible shade of green!!! (Really? Seriously? The LCD has a very faint green cast of like maybe 1%, which most people never even notice, and the LCD is twenty times better than any LCD Panasonic has ever given us.)

Meanwhile, I shoot footage on it and it looks absolutely fantastic. And guys like Leo and McGee and Mick and Chiesa and Bloom and Shooter just manage to continue turning out great footage. So it's almost like "aw, hell, what's the big crisis today?" And do I even want to dig through it? Not really...

So, no -- admittedly, when I see the next big crisis, I don't always have the appetite to dig into it. You'd think after almost three months of working with this camera almost every day, that I would have seen it all, and sometimes I think I have, and I have never, ever seen any ghosting artifacts in any footage that I've shot.

But I see that I've been asked about it. So -- no, I haven't seen any ghosting or trails. Never. From the pictures that I've seen posted here, it looks like it could be some sort of after-effect of aggressive noise reduction. I saw stuff like this on the Canon XHA1, when shooting a boat festival at night where the boats were brightly-lit-up with Christmas lights, against a black background (as it was night). If you panned like a madman, it would generate two, three, even four afterimages, if you had NR turned on to the highest level. The solution to the problem was: don't turn NR on to its highest level.

Is that what this is? I don't know, but if it is, it's extremely mild compared to what the XHA1 did. I also saw this same effect on the JVC HD100, to a much more significant degree.

My question before piling this on my list of things to do is, does it happen in properly-exposed normal shooting scenarios? Or only in grossly-underexposed artificial scenarios? Because that determines whether it's an actual issue, or a case of "don't do that".
 
But with best respects this type of problem was highlighted on the HPX370/371, panasonic had to release a firmware fix for it so I think it is not right to say users are moaning about things when there may be a flaw with the camera that needs fixing with firmware.

Or are all these quirks just undocumented features ;0)

Another panasonic customer has also highlighted it on this thread : http://forums.dvdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=52733
 
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Poor barry .... Lol sorry dude i feel you. But hey, u got to fly all over the place n play with toys tht most of us dont even get to touch nor see ! Consider this as yr public service !! :D
 
Hey, I love to get to the bottom of stuff and assist... it's just -- man, things have changed. For years people just loved the Panasonic color palette, but now all of a sudden there's all these complaints, y'know? What are you supposed to do?

If it's an actual issue, I'll dig into it and see if there's something to be found out and all. But if it's just some fringe thing that would only affect someone if they were shooting in the dark and waving the camera around ... who cares? That's not a problem. There are actual problems, and then there's stuff that's "oh, come on!"

For example -- this is what it looks like if you use a dimmable LED on a rolling-shutter camera:

To me, that's a problem, and that needs to be explored, and people need to be made aware of it, and they need to be told what the workarounds are. That's a serious problem. And that will absolutely destroy some shots, if people don't know about it.

Or, the aliasing in DSLRs, that can do this to a shot:
That's a serious problem. That needs to be explored, and the root cause determined, and workarounds or advice posted on how to avoid it. That shows up on buildings, on fences, on shirts, on window blinds, in all sorts of places. It can ruin shots. That's a problem.

Or, the rolling shutter complications on fast motion things, that can result in a shot that looks nothing like what it was supposed to:
To me, that's a serious issue. That's a case of the camera technology totally screwing up a shot and ruining it. That's something that needs to be trumpeted loudly so that people are aware of it and they know that it'll happen and that sometimes, certain cameras just cannot do the job.

Or, the flash-banding that can screw up a wedding or press conference shoot. That's a problem. Some folks are comfortable with it, some will use post-software to fix it, and heck, some don't even notice it, and some will use a CCD camera to avoid it. But that's a real-world issue that needs to be figured out and gotten to the bottom of.

Or, the grossly over-compressed long-GoP formats like HDV, that can fail spectacularly when too much changes in a scene, resulting in "HD" footage like this:
FX1-Ship-Image7.jpg


That ain't HD. That isn't SD either. That's like bad web video when there's too much congestion. So if that happened in your source "HD" footage, I'd classify that as a major problem.

I dig into things that I think pose a serious issue or challenge for shooters, especially things that will screw them over if they're not aware of it. I like to say that forewarned is forearmed, and if you know what can happen and know how to avoid it, you're much better off. Any of the cameras that I've shown examples of, can make great footage, but they can also fail in certain scenarios.

The two examples I saw in this thread are what I would classify as the minorest of inconveniences, not "problems". Like I said, if this actually affects someone in a way that it actually causes a problem in a real shot, then yeah, I'll dig into it and see what's going on and if it's a real issue (like the HPX370 noise-reduction issue) then I'll gladly put together findings and take it to the Panasonic folks and point it out to them. But is it an actual problem? Really? I haven't seen anything to show that it is, and I've never seen it in any of the real footage I've shot, nor have I seen it in any of the real footage that I've seen anyone else shoot.
 
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Three things: 1. Base sensitivity of the AF100 is approx ISO 400 so shooting any higher is going to degrade your footage. 2. Panning with S35mm type film cameras is an art. 3. Lens is very important - save up for a CP.2. I've just bought 8 x AF101 and for their price they are amazing. Peace.
 
Hi all,
We saw exactly this issue on some test clips shot with an AF101 a few weeks ago - a very obvious ghosting effect on motion. It was particularly obvious on a close up shot of a face in profile, with bright sky behind - you could see a very definite double-image. We could also see it when we stepped through other clips, though slightly less obvious.

I've been trying to get to the bottom of this.
I'm pretty sure it's not just motion blur, as it stands out at something different during playback.

Those were in well exposed external shots lit by daylight and using a Zeiss CP.2 lens, so no issue there. I can't vouch for the ISO or NR settings etc. as I didn't shoot it, but I know the camera was set to 25p and was recording offspeed 50p.

I will be raising this directly with Panasonic at BVE in London next week and trying to re-create it on their stand, so they can see it themselves.
I don't think this is scaremongering - just trying to get to the bottom of whether this is a 'bug' or a 'feature'.

Regards

Dave
 
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