GH4 GH5: Seems they haven´t thought about DR at all. Awful DR?

David W. Jones said:
I tend to get a chuckle out of this.

I'l bet there is a thread just like this one on a Hyundai forum where folks are disappointed the 2017 Accent only has 137 horsepower while comparing it to a 2017 Ferrari GTC4 Lusso. :beer:
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Except most of those people realize what they paid for and really just want to get from A to B reliably, a good radio, a decent cup holder and a heater that works. Here people want to pay for a bicycle and expect to get that Ferrari and it better be darn perfect or there will be hell to pay. I have never seen people make such a massive stink over a now $1,000.00 camera. That is practically a throw away camera price and less than a day of rental on a Arri Alexa package.
 
Question: Max DR only matters if you're shooting ISO 100 right? So if you shoot higher, than does the DR discussion become moot?
 
thehadgi said:
Question: Max DR only matters if you're shooting ISO 100 right? So if you shoot higher, than does the DR discussion become moot?
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GH5 max DR is likely achieved at ISO 400, and the further you move away from this ISO the less DR you will have to work with. That said I'm seeing what appears to be pretty good DR in Luke Neumann's GH5 Metabones speedbooster + high ISO tests...

 
David W. Jones said:
I'l bet there is a thread just like this one on a Hyundai forum where folks are disappointed the 2017 Accent only has 137 horsepower while comparing it to a 2017 Ferrari GTC4 Lusso. :beer:
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That would be a valid comparison if there weren't comparably priced cameras with better DR.
 
Well, the simple answer would then be to not buy a GH5 because they failed to give it X stops more than a GH4. Simply buy a discounted GH4 or buy some other camera to fill that need. In my eyes, the GH5 would be a pretty significant jump to anything I have on hand to shoot with, therefore it is purely magic compared to my current tools.

Still not going to rush out and buy one, don't make money off this stuff so no reason for me (personally) to need it right now. For work this from factor doesn't make sense, so again not going to buy it. An FS5 would be close to the form factor I might be able to pass at work, but in truth a cheap JVC LS300 is probably more what I need for our students. Maybe even the model below the LS300.
 
Ron Evans said:
If you want a camera that can shoot UHD 60P then FS7 at almost 4 times the cost is close !!! DR is fine for me UHD 60P is more important.
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10-bit 4:2:2 60p UHD, otherwise the GH5 does shoot 60p UHD at the 8-bit 4:2:0 format that all Canon, Nikon, Olympus, Panasonic, Sony non-cine cameras have been shooting for many years now.
 
I do not think they shoot UHD 60P they shoot UHD 30P. There is a big difference. That is also a major difference between the Sony FS5 ( only UHD 30P ) and the FS7. There are also lots of camcorders that only shoot UHD 30P and have done so for many years too. UHD 60P is the real difference unless I am mistaken none of the stills format cameras you mention shoot UHD 60P. The GH5 is the first whether 8 or 10 bit. Yes most of the camcorders only shoot UHD 8 bit 4:2:0 like my FDR-AX1 which I have had for a number of years. Its pro version the PXW-Z100 does shoot 10bit to more expensive XQD cards than the ones I use in the FDR-AX1. I have a AX53 and AX100 that will shoot UHD 30P 8 bit 4:2:0
 
Thomas Smet said:
Here people want to pay for a bicycle and expect to get that Ferrari and it better be darn perfect or there will be hell to pay. I have never seen people make such a massive stink over a now $1,000.00 camera.
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Has this not already been pointed out?

filmguy123 said:
For some it's not about the $$.

I don't care about the cost, I just want RED/Arri performance in a GH5-ish package for size and weight considerations. With the same intuitive use, rugged well built design, etc.

I would pay $15K for an S35 15-stop sensor with 240fps overcrank, 4K 60p overcrank, Internal SSD ProRes 10bit 422 Recording, a 5.5" iPhone style HD IPS screen, VFR mode with great menus, Super fast AF system, 5-Axis Stab, etc. Make it carbon fiber. Make it 2.5-3.5lbs max (half the weight of the Alexa Mini, with LCD etc. built in). Give it a footprint the size of a 1DX or something. Make the battery last long on small light batteries.
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It's about a feature set in a body and size weight. All the best features are split up. GH5 is killing it in some many departments. A7S and BMPC kill it in a couple others. And then it's big fat heavy cameras that get ruled out if you need something smaller.

People aren't complaining out of entitlement, it's out of passion because they love the GH body and want these features in their favorite camera system, or in the native lens mount that they've invested thousands in. And that's ok.

The reality is, the tech is there and it's just as much about compromises for camera companies as it is for customers. The GH5 *could* have 13 stops and not cost a dime more... but then it also wouldn't have 20 megapixel resolution or 4K no crop, because all of these are sensor considerations and trade-offs. It is what it is.

I want a GHx camera with 14 stops because I love the GH and M43 workflow, not because I'm cheap and entitled. If Panasonic offered a GH5 Video (ala A7"S") with less megapixels/larger photosites, I'd buy that model instead. But as it is, I will write my feature request letter to Panasonic, and shoot with the GH5 and enjoy all the crazy awesome new stuff it *DOES* have.

All good... just a discussion... it doesn't make people entitled.
 
TheDingo said:
10-bit 4:2:2 60p UHD, otherwise the GH5 does shoot 60p UHD at the 8-bit 4:2:0 format that all Canon, Nikon, Olympus, Panasonic, Sony non-cine cameras have been shooting for many years now.
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Confirmed by Atomos that GH5 owners will be able to externally record UHD 60P 10bit/4:2:2, so for those that need that extra color resolution, the option is there.
 
joe12south said:
Confirmed by Atomos that GH5 owners will be able to externally record UHD 60P 10bit/4:2:2, so for those that need that extra color resolution, the option is there.
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It will be interesting to see how the GH5 high bit-rate ( 400 Mbps ) Summer firmware upgrade compares with external recorders. ( won't do anything for 10-bit 60p capture, but comparing the image quality is something I will try )
 
TheDingo said:
For me the big difference is that the Sony FS5 does NOT shoot 4K 10-bit 4:2:2, only 4K 8-bit 4:2:0, and then only at 30p.
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I think we are focused on different things. For me it is UHD 60P that matters,whether that is at 8 bit 4:2:0 or 10 bit 4:2:2 where as you seemed more concerned about bit depth. No UHD 60P not on my list, simple. There are lots of camcorders and still format cameras with UHD 30P, not on my list.

So for still format cameras it is the GH5 and for camcorders there is a limited range. The FDR-AX1 that I have, its pro version the PXW-Z100 , the FS7 and then the really expensive Sony's F5 and F55, F65. Panasonic HC-X1, UX180, DVX200 and Varicams. Everything in this list is more expensive than a GH5 with a lens even the Panasonic camcorders that do not come near the performance but do have the convenience of 20x zooms etc. I would love this GH5 electronics in a DVX form factor and would be great in combination with the GH5, maybe we will see that too sometime.
 
filmguy123 said:
It's about a feature set in a body and size weight
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I agree and think there's a market for professional-grade cameras in the DSLR body style. I wouldn't mind more cameras in the size of the Sony FS5 either (and I mean after all necessary accessories are attached).

Actually the GH5 is a fantastic camera, based on what has been announced: size, shape, weatherproofness, battery life, XLR adapter, ISO, dynamic range, frame rates, recording formats, recording length, recording media affordability.

The big thing missing from my Perfect Camera Checklist is global shutter, and like others have said I would gladly have taken a hit in resolution in exchange for it. It seems like it is technologically possible: 4K, 12 stops, global shutter. Surely by the time Fuji and Panasonic's organic sensor gets out (last I heard, 2018-2020). Or maybe at NAB Sony will imbue more cameras with that nifty sensor from its F55 (hey, it has been four years now).
 
I think the GH5 (at $2000) is the least expensive interchangeable lens camera that can shoot UHD at 60fps. Next closest is probably the Blackmagic URSA Mini 4K version at $3000 and 4.6K version at $5000. Canon has the 1DX Mark II at $6000 and Sony has the FS7 at $8500. There actually aren't many options in this space (Nikon, Fuji, and Olympus don't have any as far as I know) and you quickly get into full cine camera range in both size and price.

And other than the recently announced YI 4K+ Action Camera at $300 (release date not yet set), I think the GH5 may be the least expensive camera that can shoot UHD 60p at all. Even adding an external recorder like the Shogun Inferno, you're still at $4000 for a package that can record 10-bit 4:2:2 UHD 60p.

In much the same way that the GH4 ushered in a new wave of lower priced cameras with 4K internal recording, I'm hopeful that the GH5 will lead to a bunch of new cameras with UHD 60p and higher quality (10-bit 4:2:2 or higher) internal recording.

But anyway, this thread was about dynamic range.
 
Arri rates the ALEXA's, & AMIRA's, sensor as having 14 stops of dynamic range, which is the same as Sony rates the F5/55/FS7. Having extensively used both systems side-by-side it's readily apparent the Arri(s) have at least a stop more range than those Sony's.

Canon states the C300 II is capable of 15 stops of dynamic range, while RED boasts of 16 stops. The DPs I know who've used those cameras feel the Arri(s) still best them when it comes to dynamic range.
 
joe12south said:
Confirmed by Atomos that GH5 owners will be able to externally record UHD 60P 10bit/4:2:2, so for those that need that extra color resolution, the option is there.
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To the Inferno, not the Flame or any product below the price point of the Inferno. The Pix-E and Video Assist devices also only support up to 30p for 4k/UHD. The Inferno is $2,000.
 
Bern Caughey said:
Arri rates the ALEXA's, & AMIRA's, sensor as having 14 stops of dynamic range, which is the same as Sony rates the F5/55/FS7. Having extensively used both systems side-by-side it's readily apparent the Arri(s) have at least a stop more range than those Sony's.

Canon states the C300 II is capable of 15 stops of dynamic range, while RED boasts of 16 stops. The DPs I know who've used those cameras feel the Arri(s) still best them when it comes to dynamic range.
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Important thing to remember about a listed DR spec is it is up to the interpretation of the manufacturer as to how it was measured. Some cameras may claim 13 stops but in reality may be more like 12. This is why I think it is important to really test the GH5 to know for sure how it stacks up to other cameras. Its like the old lux rating cameras used to have. One camera would have x lux rating and another could have the same rating but have nowhere near as good of low light performance. Specs are at best a crude snake oil science method of knowing how well a camera will do. They are most a marketing tool.
 
Ron Evans said:
I would love this GH5 electronics in a DVX form factor and would be great in combination with the GH5, maybe we will see that too sometime.
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It would not surprise me if the DVX200 gets upgraded with GH5 tech to become a DVX300 with the same specs as the GH5. Probably won't happen this year, but I could see this out at NAB 2018.
 
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