GH4 GH4 vs The RED

I

Indyreel

Well-known member
I'm planning a sequel to my film, Valor Rising, but I could use some input on which camera to use on this one.

http://www.valorrising.com/

I used an unhacked GH1 on the first film and was very impressed that the camera gave a very film like look, despite the fact that I didn't have the money to hire a colorist.

I have heard so much about the RED camera, but am not really that impressed with the films I've seen that employed it.

I know almost nothing about the GH 2 3 4 + 13 but have to assume that they look great (taking for granted that they give an even better picture than the GH1)

The RED, however, looms in the background, as so many people consider it incredible. I wonder, am I missing something here? as my film looked better on a 40 foot movie screen than two Red films I saw on the same size screen.

Any Input would be much appreciated
 
It does depend somewhat on your budget, but I have the perfect test for you - my latest cinematography reel is 100% made up of GH4 and Red footage. YouTube compression aside, watch it in 4K and see if you can tell which shots belong to which camera:


If you find it hard to tell the difference, I think that will give you your answer ;)

To my mind the GH4 and Red One MX/Epic have very similar images. Obviously Red is RAW and much higher quality in terms of high speed and bit depth etc, but it costs a lot more too. I would say, if your budget allows it, shoot Red, but if your budget doesn't, don't lose too much sleep, as GH4 treated properly will give you a good 95% of the image and more than enough resolution to look really good on a 40' screen!

HTH!

Cheers,

Paul :)
 
visceralpsyche said:
It does depend somewhat on your budget, but I have the perfect test for you - my latest cinematography reel is 100% made up of GH4 and Red footage. YouTube compression aside, watch it in 4K and see if you can tell which shots belong to which camera:


If you find it hard to tell the difference, I think that will give you your answer ;)

To my mind the GH4 and Red One MX/Epic have very similar images. Obviously Red is RAW and much higher quality in terms of high speed and bit depth etc, but it costs a lot more too. I would say, if your budget allows it, shoot Red, but if your budget doesn't, don't lose too much sleep, as GH4 treated properly will give you a good 95% of the image and more than enough resolution to look really good on a 40' screen!

HTH!

Cheers,

Paul :)
Click to expand...

Stunning work. You are very talented.
 
If you're asking about IQ, then the GH4 is as good as RED from the point of view of the average movie goer (and not a pixel peeper), so that should not be your criterion for picking one over the other, IMHO. Some will say that you can't grade GH4 footage as well as RED, but meh, there are different schools of thought, some think you should try to get the final look as much as possible in camera (that's my opinion too), others prefer to leave as much as possible to post and shoot as flat as possible.

IMHO, since the IQ is not the decisive criterion, you really should look to other things. How easy and efficient is it to shoot on a given camera? How much other gear do you need to make a cam work? From that point of view, a GH4 like many DSLRs has limitations - will you be using a monitor, or are you going to try to go off the LCD screen... be aware that there's the HDMI lag on the GH4, and there are some rolling shutter issues. But RED is not the easiest to shoot on either, and with a dedicated video camera, you lose some of the "the camera is small and inconspicuous" advantages of a smaller DSLR like the GH4. If cost were no object, I'd much sooner shoot on an Alexa than RED, not so much because of the IQ, but because the workflow is much better than on the RED. But if obviously budget is an issue, and given a choice between a GH4 and RED, I'd pick GH4 as it's not much harder to work with compared to RED, and it's way cheaper for almost the same final effect.
 
I agree, very nice Paul. Could I ask you to spill the beans and say which clips are GH4? I am interested in the GH5 (thinking it will build on the GH4) and would really enjoy seeing it next to a RED with a capable operator. Thanks.
 
I remember going onto the Cinematography.com a few years ago and seeing some guy ask, "Hi. I am just staring out in the industry and wonder what camera I should use". To which, someone almost instantly replied, "Buy an Alexa" (which, at the time, ran well over $100,000 with the full shooting package). The above is not that different from asking, "Which sport car should I buy?", with the nearly obvious answer being, "A Ferrari".

That said, each camera gives you a different bang for the buck. On the low end, GH4 with an external 10-bit recorder is a top (not to be confused with THE TOP, as that is personal) buy. For low light, A7s with the same external recorder would be as good an investment as any (and one can use the same recorder - Shogun/Assassin, Q7+ or PIX-E5 on all cameras with the HDMI out). For the indoor shoots with controlled lighting, A7RII gives an oversampled 4K, with excellent vivid colors. It records 4K internally but can also be used with any external recorder/monitor mentioned above. And what may be the best of the low end models is FS-700R, which can record 4K Raw (though only out to Q7/Q7+ via SDI).

The next step up are the URSA Mini (still to be released), FS7 and Red Raven, which will end up from $8,000 to $13,000 ready to shoot, without the lenses. The next step is C300 MKII, which is about $20,000 ready to shoot.

And that's for the brand new products, currently or soon to be available that shoot in 4K. If you're willing to consider used equipment, the original C300, 1D C with its 4K internal recording, C500 (4K with the external recorder and/or Raw license) are other options.
 
visceralpsyche said:
It does depend somewhat on your budget, but I have the perfect test for you - my latest cinematography reel is 100% made up of GH4 and Red footage. YouTube compression aside, watch it in 4K and see if you can tell which shots belong to which camera:


If you find it hard to tell the difference, I think that will give you your answer ;)

To my mind the GH4 and Red One MX/Epic have very similar images. Obviously Red is RAW and much higher quality in terms of high speed and bit depth etc, but it costs a lot more too. I would say, if your budget allows it, shoot Red, but if your budget doesn't, don't lose too much sleep, as GH4 treated properly will give you a good 95% of the image and more than enough resolution to look really good on a 40' screen!

HTH!

Cheers,

Paul :)
Click to expand...

That's Some nice footage. I can't tell the difference. Is the lighthouse sequence gh4 or red?
 
shooting a feature on red has hidden costs that if you are not prepared for could hurt you. Hard drive space and qualified post production team come to mind as the most important examples. Having said that, a RED Dragon REALLLLLLLY looks out. The picture is superior to anything I've worked with, shooting RAW is very forgiving, and just looks more "cinematic". I have shot 3 budgeted features with red cameras but i also own a GH4 and love that camera too. feel free to email me or pm me if you wanna chat about dragon cameras
quinn@coderepicturecompany.com
 
Good lighting needs to be priority really. After that, for narrative work I'd use a RED or a Blackmagic before a GH4.
 
Indyreel said:
I'm planning a sequel to my film, Valor Rising, but I could use some input on which camera to use on this one.

http://www.valorrising.com/

I used an unhacked GH1 on the first film and was very impressed that the camera gave a very film like look, despite the fact that I didn't have the money to hire a colorist.

I have heard so much about the RED camera, but am not really that impressed with the films I've seen that employed it.

I know almost nothing about the GH 2 3 4 + 13 but have to assume that they look great (taking for granted that they give an even better picture than the GH1)

The RED, however, looms in the background, as so many people consider it incredible. I wonder, am I missing something here? as my film looked better on a 40 foot movie screen than two Red films I saw on the same size screen.

Any Input would be much appreciated
Click to expand...

You have made a film already. That is awesome! So that already has given you plenty of experience. What were the pros and cons of the GH1 and which cons are a must to not have on your sequel?

Obviously, you can spend tons more and have a superior camera like a used Red Epic. But do you desperately need all its offerings to make your sequel? Return on Investment is also something to consider. How much have you made on your last film and how much do you plan/want to realistically spend on your next film?

GH4 does not have pro audio unless you go yagh attachment. But that might be ok if you are slating and recording dual system with a good audio person. And the HDMI lag may not be to cumbersome if you are not doing a lot of complicated camera movements that require precise focus pulls and such. Lastly, if you are lighting your scenes than the advantages of RAW are minimized because you can adjust your exposure and light ratios on set. So yeah, you can buy a GH4 with external recorder and save the extra $10k or so...either throw it into your retirement, or other aspects of production...production design, makeup, location, grip, cast or even post. Whatever you see best fit.

On on the other hand, do you need to shoot RAW to compensate for a lack of controlled lighting? And do you need to have precise focus control for complicated camera moves without the need for the extra work-arounds required by the GH4? And do you need the ability to shoot 120fps? And do you need audio to go straight to the camera for on-set sync sound? These are things the Red will be able to offer you. But to be honest, other cheaper options can offer you these things as well.

Anyways, I think it's a trade off. A red might mean you can't afford as much sound and light equipment, as opposed to a gh4...if you are exclusively talking about these two. But it's a wonderful world out there, with many options!

Congrats on your latest film and all the best on your upcoming projects!!
 
Thank you for your kind words.
The pro of the GH one that I really value is its very film like / cinematic look. I have seen many better cameras that don't look as cinematic. Instead, most give a hybrid look, kind of like a cross between 35 millimeter and a soap opera.

The thing I did not like about the gh1 was the macro blocking and the limited amount of forgiveness in color grading.
 
Thanks for the compliments on my reel, as well as the requests for a breakdown of which clip is shot with which camera :D

Here is the answer key:

Cinematography_Reel_2015_Breakdown.png


Did you guess correctly?

You can download the full 4K HEVC H265 version of the reel here, without YouTube compression: http://downloads.visceralpsyche.com...5/Cinematography Sizzle Reel 2015 H265 4K.mp4 (297MB, right click/save as to download)

Make sure your player can handle H265 compression, otherwise it won't work ;)

Indyreel, the most important takeaway I'd suggest for your next feature, is to film at 23.98fps or 24.00fps (depending on DCI or Blu-ray output) with a 180 degree shutter, for that true cinematic feel.

HTH!

Cheers,

Paul :)
 
Jim Simon said:
You do realize that probably half the movies and TV shows you watch are shot on RED, don't you? You find that much entertainment technically unimpressive?
Click to expand...

I did not realize that... Can you give me some examples? as the films I've viewed that were shot on RED were indie and probably did not have the budget for correct post grading, etc.
 
Half are not shot on red. The majority of high end TV is shot on Alexa. This is a question you should be asking your cinematographer.
If you are the cinematographer don't expect a camera to take you to the next level. Shoot with what makes you happy.
 
Matty_g said:
Half are not shot on red. The (OVERWHELMING) majority of high end TV is shot on Alexa...
Click to expand...
There. I pitched in on the above comment. The overwhelming majority of the scripted TV shows is shot on Alexa in either 2880x1600 or straight 1080p. Sony based shows usually use F55.

However (!!!) Netflix and Amazon want to distinguish themselves from the OTA networks and see 4K as something the networks can not currently offer. Thus, most shows made for these online streamers must be in 4K and there Red cameras have a decent slice of the pie because Alexa is not a 4K camera and because, with Alexa out, it basically comes down to Red Dragon vs. F55 neck in neck, with Panasonic Varicam surging on the outside.
 
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