GH4 GH4 V-log?

Lpowell said:
Is V-log just for using LUTS?
Yes, unless you enjoy starting from scratch with a dingy gray image.

Is V-log flatter than using pedestal/curves/cine-d ect?
Not really, but it's more precisely calibrated.

Is 8-bit enough for v-log?
Not quite, but if you expose carefully, no one will notice.

V-log can't increase DR right?
It increases dynamic range at the expense of tonal range. YMMV
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Thanks Lpowell, I read similar things from Alister Chapman's blog.
 
OK, there's the answer that some have been looking for, 8 bits is really not enough for this unless close attention is paid to exposure. So to do this correctly, you still really need an external recorder.
 
Greg_E said:
OK, there's the answer that some have been looking for, 8 bits is really not enough for this unless close attention is paid to exposure. So to do this correctly, you still really need an external recorder.
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When you say "not enough", do you mean that it won't be utilising V-LOG's full potential by shooting internally? Would you say that it's useless (or even detrimental) to shoot V-LOG internally?
 
By the way, I just got off the phone with a Panasonic Australia rep and he told me that they're releasing the announcement in Australia today, and that it should be available by "mid to late September" and cost AUD$150.
 
For the record, 8-Bits can absolutely be enough for log space.

What matters most is the quality of your bits, and what you attempt to make those bits do.

Here's the thing, and this is absolutely something you won't hear from anyone else, V-Log-L on the GH4 is not the last significant update for the GH4! There's about 3x people outside of Panasonic that actually knows how much power is lurking under that hood.

I have no idea if future updates will be contingent on this upgrade, but this camera is already producing more apparent resolution that several top end cameras made just for cinema. I projected a scientific test on a Christie 4K projector on a 25' screen in February 2014 which proved this. Now with V-Log-L, the humble GH4 just overtook the DR of several "professional" cameras costing many thousands more.
 
Illya Friedman said:
...Here's the thing, and this is absolutely something you won't hear from anyone else, V-Log-L on the GH4 is not the last significant update for the GH4! There's about 3x people outside of Panasonic that actually knows how much power is lurking under that hood...
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Do tell.
 
Greg_E said:
OK, there's the answer that some have been looking for, 8 bits is really not enough for this unless close attention is paid to exposure. So to do this correctly, you still really need an external recorder.
Click to expand...

When it comes to cameras sometimes people seem to forget they have eyes. Even the deep technical side of filmmaking is somewhat an art form - you can't just take two variables like "log" and "bits" and expect a definitive mathematical answer to their validity for use in filmmaking. At the end of the day it's subjective. It simply isn't and can't be as straightforward as "V-Log requires an external recorder". Look at the C300 - not even capable of 10bit externally or 4K ... and yet C-Log has been used extensively on major, successful productions and look great. It's incredible that the GH4 is even capable of 10bit 422. It's the only hybrid camera that is. Is it "necessary" for V-Log? For those that really need a definitive answer - NO! Of course it isn't! Is V-Log perfect in 8bit internal or 10bit external? No! Neither! Is it ok to use vlog with 8bit internal recording if your eyes are content with what they see? Yes!!! There are more important things to worry about when making a film!
 
Lintel said:
When it comes to cameras sometimes people seem to forget they have eyes. Even the deep technical side of filmmaking is somewhat an art form - you can't just take two variables like "log" and "bits" and expect a definitive mathematical answer to their validity for use in filmmaking. At the end of the day it's subjective. It simply isn't and can't be as straightforward as "V-Log requires an external recorder". Look at the C300 - not even capable of 10bit externally or 4K ... and yet C-Log has been used extensively on major, successful productions and look great. It's incredible that the GH4 is even capable of 10bit 422. It's the only hybrid camera that is. Is it "necessary" for V-Log? For those that really need a definitive answer - NO! Of course it isn't! Is V-Log perfect in 8bit internal or 10bit external? No! Neither! Is it ok to use vlog with 8bit internal recording if your eyes are content with what they see? Yes!!! There are more important things to worry about when making a film!
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legendary. thank you.
 
Illya Friedman said:
For the record, 8-Bits can absolutely be enough for log space.

What matters most is the quality of your bits, and what you attempt to make those bits do.

Here's the thing, and this is absolutely something you won't hear from anyone else, V-Log-L on the GH4 is not the last significant update for the GH4! There's about 3x people outside of Panasonic that actually knows how much power is lurking under that hood.

I have no idea if future updates will be contingent on this upgrade, but this camera is already producing more apparent resolution that several top end cameras made just for cinema. I projected a scientific test on a Christie 4K projector on a 25' screen in February 2014 which proved this. Now with V-Log-L, the humble GH4 just overtook the DR of several "professional" cameras costing many thousands more.
Click to expand...

Glad I held out now!!

I used C-log on an 8-bit C100 without the footage completely falling apart, plus S-log on an FS700 with great results so not really too afraid of V-log 8bit footage. Though the new Ninja Assassin has caught my eye...
 
Lpowell said:
Is V-log just for using LUTS?
Yes, unless you enjoy starting from scratch with a dingy gray image.
Click to expand...
No, LUTS are a nice shortcut, but far from necessary.

Is V-log flatter than using pedestal/curves/cine-d ect?
Not really, but it's more precisely calibrated.
Click to expand...
Just not so, at all. Research what a logarithmic gamma curve is.

Is 8-bit enough for v-log?
Not quite, but if you expose carefully, no one will notice.
Click to expand...
Bah. According to this logic 8-bit isn't enough for green screen work, either, nor a myriad of other uses that people use it for every single day with great results. You don't need 10-bits of color precision in order to appreciate the benefits of a LOG profile. (10-bit is nice for other reasons.)

V-log can't increase DR right?
It increases dynamic range at the expense of tonal range. YMMV
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While technically true, that statement is a bit disingenuous because the decision of how to make that compromise is largely left to the user in post, so it can be done much more intelligently than the opposite...which is a non-log profile permanently throwing away DR.
 
Greg_E said:
OK, there's the answer that some have been looking for, 8 bits is really not enough for this unless close attention is paid to exposure. So to do this correctly, you still really need an external recorder.
Click to expand...
Poppycock, I say. Much more opinion than fact. 10-bits of precision is nice to have for many applications, but the difference has to do with precision between maximums) not the maximums themselves. An 8-bit and 10-bit signal can both capture the same DR, so the same exposure.
 
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PaleoMarcel said:
When you say "not enough", do you mean that it won't be utilising V-LOG's full potential by shooting internally? Would you say that it's useless (or even detrimental) to shoot V-LOG internally?
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The added dynamic range and better color accuracy (compared to the CINE profiles) of V-LOG makes it very worthwhile for internal 8-bit recording. Emphatically stating otherwise is ridiculous, and does a disservice to those that don't know better.

Can you push a 10-bit image further in post? Sure. Does that mean 8-bit images are "useless", certainly not!
 
Well I spoke to Shane Hurlbut a while ago and his opinion was 8 bit is definitely enough for cinema screen.. Vlog is fine with 8 bit it probably would help for 10 bit if you were filming skies or complex colours so you get better colour detail without banding.
 
Illya Friedman said:
For the record, 8-Bits can absolutely be enough for log space.

What matters most is the quality of your bits, and what you attempt to make those bits do.

Here's the thing, and this is absolutely something you won't hear from anyone else, V-Log-L on the GH4 is not the last significant update for the GH4! There's about 3x people outside of Panasonic that actually knows how much power is lurking under that hood.

I have no idea if future updates will be contingent on this upgrade, but this camera is already producing more apparent resolution that several top end cameras made just for cinema. I projected a scientific test on a Christie 4K projector on a 25' screen in February 2014 which proved this. Now with V-Log-L, the humble GH4 just overtook the DR of several "professional" cameras costing many thousands more.
Click to expand...

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE ask them for aspect markers on LCD: 2.40:1 or 2.39:1, and ALSO to max out the 4k recording pixel count to whatever the processor can handle, like 4.2k or 4.6 whatever
 
Illya Friedman said:
For the record, 8-Bits can absolutely be enough for log space.

What matters most is the quality of your bits, and what you attempt to make those bits do.

Here's the thing, and this is absolutely something you won't hear from anyone else, V-Log-L on the GH4 is not the last significant update for the GH4! There's about 3x people outside of Panasonic that actually knows how much power is lurking under that hood.

I have no idea if future updates will be contingent on this upgrade, but this camera is already producing more apparent resolution that several top end cameras made just for cinema. I projected a scientific test on a Christie 4K projector on a 25' screen in February 2014 which proved this. Now with V-Log-L, the humble GH4 just overtook the DR of several "professional" cameras costing many thousands more.
Click to expand...

Illya

you once posted that we will not see a third party knock of the YAGH. This came from seeing what is inside the box, and maybe I would add, some inside knowledge you might be privy to. Do you get any sense that there might be untapped processing power beyond what it does now that the camera processor can make use of to provide more advanced features?
 
Alvise Tedesco said:
Where It is stated?
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I'm basing this off of Nick Driftwood's test files. I did not see the CINE-D color errors that are so hard to fix. Obviously, until I can get some charts shot under controlled lighting, I can't know how great a different there is, but based on what I have been able to see so far, it looks like a meaningful improvement.
 
wwjd said:
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE ask them for aspect markers on LCD: 2.40:1 or 2.39:1, and ALSO to max out the 4k recording pixel count to whatever the processor can handle, like 4.2k or 4.6 whatever
Click to expand...
Panasonic very much likes to adhere to "standards", so I highly doubt we'll ever see an odd ball resolution. (Though I'd love to see it, if only to get a winder FOV.) But I will add my voice to the chorus asking for aspect ratio guides. This should be very doable, would be a big help, and would fit right in line with the trend towards "filmmaker" friendly features that Panasonic has been adding.
 
joe12south said:
Research what a logarithmic gamma curve is.
Click to expand...

Suggest you research Lpowell. He works for Dolby & authored (IMO) the best GH2 patches.

And he is correct. The vast majority of users will want to apply a LUT, both to their monitor(s), & especially in post.

I shoot Log regularly & wouldn't without LUTs.
 
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