GH4 GH4 V-log?

[gh4_storyteller]

I always like to take a "keepin' it real" type of perspective on things like this. Plenty of films shot in C-Log on the C100's internal 8-bit codec turn out spectacular. Just take this documentary for example; it has plenty of saturated, vibrant, strong footage. I have no problem with 8-bit Log on the GH4 if my shots can turn out like that.

 

[DeeZiD]

I always like to take a "keepin' it real" type of perspective on things like this. Plenty of films shot in C-Log on the C100's internal 8-bit codec turn out spectacular. Just take this documentary for example; it has plenty of saturated, vibrant, strong footage. I have no problem with 8-bit Log on the GH4 if my shots can turn out like that.

I think V-Log could be amazing, even in 8 bit. Didn't have any problems working with c300 with c-log the last few years. ;-)

 

[Bern Caughey]

Sony slog on the A7s or FS7 is nearly as bad. Add a recorder that captures in 4.2.2 10-bit and it can be a different story.

Did you mean FS700 instead of FS7?

The FS7 records 10-bit 4:2:2 internally & (in my limited experience) looks good with Sony's Alexa LUT applied in post.

 

[David W. Jones]

I always like to take a "keepin' it real" type of perspective on things like this..

Since we are keeping it real... Yes 8bit log footage can look great. But 10bit log footage can be pushed much further in post before it starts to break up. And 16bit linear raw log footage holds up even better in post. Having just finished a project shot on the F65 and seeing first hand what the colorist was able to do compared to 8bit footage, it's hard to go back to shooting with an 8bit camera.

 

[wwjd]

I disagree with some perspectives here based on personal experience. Cinestyle on a crappy 8 Stop Dynamic range low end camera like T3i is a GODSEND allowing more details to be filmed, as opposed to washed out or black buried due to limitations in the sensor and design. But that is just me.
Sure, it robs this for that, but works much better for getting the whole scene than just MOST of it. It, and GH4, wil NEVER be an Alexa, but if it helps capture what you desire to film on lesser gear, it is a win.

 

[stoneinapond]

Since we are keeping it real...

That's hardly keeping it real in the context of this thread.

 

[dustylense]

Shooting 8bit 1080p and 8 bit UHD are two different worlds. I push my Gh4 pretty hard compared to any of my 1080p 8 bit cameras and it holds up quite nicely.

 

[David W. Jones]

That's hardly keeping it real in the context of this thread.

Sure it is... The GH4 is capable of 10bit 4:2:2 with an external recorder.

Do you honestly think log footage from the internal 8bit 4:2:0 with 256 levels of grey can be pushed as far in post as the 10bit 4:2:2 log footage with 16 million levels of grey?

I mention the 16bit linear raw log from the F65 as a comparison, as where you can push your footage in post even farther than the 10bit before it breaks up.

Something else to think about.... Many folks have monitors which are only 8bit. And they can not see or tell a big difference in higher quality 10bit footage.

 

[nogohome]

AFAIK 10bit has 1024 levels of gray, or 1024 Levels of information per color channel, 8bit hast 256 Levels, so still a lot more, but far from 16 million, which would be 24bit per color channel.

Niklas

 

[David W. Jones]

Yes you are correct. Sometimes my fingers and brain don't work in unison.

 

[morgan_moore]

Im new to the Gh4 and just getting going. on a 1080 Resolve Timeline to me it seems like the 4k is significantly more robust to grade than 1080 - is it going to 10bit?. This is a serious push intended to break the file..

 

[c3hammer]

Did you mean FS700 instead of FS7?
The FS7 records 10-bit 4:2:2 internally & (in my limited experience) looks good with Sony's Alexa LUT applied in post.

Sorry I was referring to the fs700 that only does 20-28mbps internally.

 

[ukfilmer]

Something else to think about.... Many folks have monitors which are only 8bit. And they can not see or tell a big difference in higher quality 10bit footage.

Nearly all standard computer monitors and TVs are 8 bit per channel, a lot barely even manage that.

A lot of monitor's take a 6 bit per channel input and "Dither" by flickering between other colour values.

It's somewhat unrelated to what your main point is... but still, in the bigger picture of the statement it's worth mentioning.

 

[David W. Jones]

My point exactly.

 

[wwjd]

my 4k monitor boasts:

ONE BILLION COLORS!!!



...not that my graphics card can drive that though

 

[Lintel]

The benefits of V-Log for the GH4 are about more than just dynamic range. It also offers improved colour science, so is therefore arguably MORE important for 8-bit footage than 10-bit. Anyone who's shot RAW stills (or 12fps RAW video: https://vimeo.com/113929718) with the GH4 knows the sensor is capable of much nicer skin tones than the current video picture profiles allow. Compression requires excellent colour science because the palette is so limited. This is where C-Log has been so successful IMO (and Canon cameras in general really).

Anyway, it's clear from the small amount of v-log footage online so far that it's going to give the GH4 a noticeable leap in both DR and colour without the codec going to mush. For me 8-bit V-log at 100mbps (and particularly in 4K) is much more acceptable than S-log on the A7S at 50mbps 1080p (which was/is a marketing gimmick as far as I'm concerned).

 

[c3hammer]

....It also offers improved colour science, so is therefore arguably MORE important for 8-bit footage than 10-bit....
...it's clear from the small amount of v-log footage online so far that it's going to give the GH4 a noticeable leap in both DR and colour without the codec going to mush...

How do you know it's going to be improved color science? Everyone keeps talking about these neverland terms, but what can they do with it in 4.2.0 8-bit they aren't already doing?

From my previewing samples online, v-log produces noisy mush in the low midtones just like cinestyle did on the canon's. It appears to me v-log on the gh4 will require perfect lighting, nearly defeating the purpose of having it in the first place. All the samples are of sunsets and landscapes. The one, under lit face at the end of one sample shows doom and destruction.

We'll both agree that s-log on the internal codec of the A7s is a gimmick and virtually worthless. I'm afraid the same might be said the GH4 in the end of the day.

Cheers,
Pete

 

[Lintel]

Everyone keeps talking about these neverland terms, but what can they do with it in 4.2.0 8-bit they aren't already doing?

Pete you think colour science is a neverland term? It isn't - it's the overriding reason Arri and Canon have the preeminent cinema cameras when other manufacturers offer "better" tech specs. To answer your question Panasonic can do a great deal with 420 8bit that they haven't already done. Think of it in terms of LUTs: all video footage from the GH4 is compressed in-camera, so choices have to be made about what to throw away. Like applying a LUT as the first step of grading, it's destructive. We don't like destructive with 8-bit footage because we don't want to have to change it too much, so we want Panasonic to get the first in-camera "LUT" right. Unlike us, they have all the RAW information from the sensor to create that LUT with, so they have a huge amount of options that haven't been explored with the current picture profiles. Canon got it very right with C-log on their 8-bit cinema line. To my eye Panasonic appear to have improved on the current profiles noticeably. Lets wait and see.
Colour science is an art as much as a science - it can't be reduced to measurables as easily as DR, resolution, ISO, etc. It's also rather subjective and therefore not so great for arguing about on forums ... :2vrolijk_08:

 

[Curnsie]

Drawing from my own experience I had far better results from C-Log on the C100 than any current profile on the GH4. There's something sweet about grading C-log - hopefully V-log will improve things on the GH4. At the end of the day people will either benefit or moan endlessly about it...

 

[bboyfasteddie]

It's also rather subjective and therefore not so great for arguing about on forums ... :2vrolijk_08:

Actually for someone like me who is coming from an ENG AVC-I/DVCPROHD background who's done a lot of color correction but not grading, this discussion has been quite informative and helpful. I agree that the Panny color science and picture profiles leave a lot to be desired compared to Canon. Skin tones tend to look weird and the picture frequently looks orange green. It would be great for the firmware update to include improvements to the existing picture profiles as well as V-Log-L when it comes out.