GH3 GH3 with ProRes

Thomas Smet said:
Why don't you prove to us just how bad the format is compared to ProRes. I would love to see your side by side examples as to how you came to the conclusion that 50mbit AVCHD from the GH3 is a hobbled format. I'm not saying ProRes doesn't have advantages but for many those advantages don't justify the extra requirements of the format.
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Back up a minute. I never said anything negative about AVCHD. I'm not at all complaining about that codec and saying it's not good enough for a lot of productions. I like AVCHD. But you seem to have taken my "hobbled" statement as a dig against the AVCHD codec rather than a dig against the lack of ProRes or DNxHD as I intended it.
 
malibudutchie said:
Thanks, I'm looking forward to all the newbies buying one and posting their quality 4K videos. I mean, thats what its about...right.
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Yep, that's what it really comes down to.
95% of people moaning about bitrates and DR stops will be spending $3k to shoot their cat in 4k, and buying a whole new $2k machine to grade it on. (and then upload it to Vimeo in compressed 720p).
 
roxics said:
Back up a minute. I never said anything negative about AVCHD. I'm not at all complaining about that codec and saying it's not good enough for a lot of productions. I like AVCHD. But you seem to have taken my "hobbled" statement as a dig against the AVCHD codec rather than a dig against the lack of ProRes or DNxHD as I intended it.
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DSLR cameras are photography machines first, video cameras second.
If you want ProRes then buy a BMCC or C100.
 
The "need" for pro-res comes from users of Final Cut who have to transcode everything into that format. I have actually shot in AVCHD accidentally when I forgot to switch back to .mov and the difference is pretty negigible.
As Fresno Bob says, there's gonna be a lot of cat and dog videos compressed to HD vimeo showing how "good" 4K is.
For me, quality is a package which includes, audio, composition, content, grading and a broadcast standard bitrate, not 4K from a pocket camera. A "good" camera for me is one that is ergonomically excellent with intelligent menuing and will be easy to upgrade.
I don't believe the Hype that you need A and B cameras and then have a "pocket" 4K as well.
 
Fresno Bob said:
Yep, that's what it really comes down to.
95% of people moaning about bitrates and DR stops will be spending $3k to shoot their cat in 4k, and buying a whole new $2k machine to grade it on. (and then upload it to Vimeo in compressed 720p).
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Well said Bob!

Can't wait to hear the agonizing about why hardware, software, and web-hosting vendors don't provide 4K support at 720p prices.
 
Fresno Bob said:
Yep, that's what it really comes down to.
95% of people moaning about bitrates and DR stops will be spending $3k to shoot their cat in 4k, and buying a whole new $2k machine to grade it on. (and then upload it to Vimeo in compressed 720p).
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4k is more than what you think.......

If someone wants to shoot their cat or event, movie, etc. you or me are in no place to judge. I can see the advantage of shooting in 4k, just because your delivery format might be 1080,720 or even SD doesn't take away from the great resolution and dynamic range you started off with.

I am buying a Black Magic Pocket camera and more than likely their 4k camera to company my GH3. Different tools, for clients who choose to pay more or less. I love image and art is actually that simple, the BMCC is able to produce images the GH3 cannot, simple.

peace
 
JFR, I'm not sure why you need to shoot 4K if your delivery format is very basic. This footage would look great as a feed from your BMCC to a large HDTV or on a cinema screen - it would not do it justice watching on vimeo or SD or youtube, no matter what people think.
It's a great development, sure, but lets weigh up the value with peripherals added and a ramped up edit suite or home PC, cause next year it will be 6K and 8K and cats and dogs will look even better.
 
I would argue that shooting home videos in 4K is far more important than shooting fictional movies. Home movies are memories, events that only happen once. Wish I had a 4K camera that shot cinemaDNG back when my son was born 9 years ago, far more valuable to me for that than for the feature I was directing at the time.
 
malibudutchie said:
JFR, I'm not sure why you need to shoot 4K if your delivery format is very basic. This footage would look great as a feed from your BMCC to a large HDTV or on a cinema screen - it would not do it justice watching on vimeo or SD or youtube, no matter what people think.
It's a great development, sure, but lets weigh up the value with peripherals added and a ramped up edit suite or home PC, cause next year it will be 6K and 8K and cats and dogs will look even better.
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Having shot 5k on the Red Epic I will say there is a very good reason.....

That larger you shoot you are able to capture more image within the frame. If I shoot a wide shot at 5k and work in a 1080p timeline I can create crops from the 5k and not lose any resolution and create my own sub clips from a single 5k shot. It's actually very cool once you've done it before. Also a higher res image will be able to debayer at a better 1080p quality than a camera that just shot 1080p.

Finally I plan on shooting short films and freelance dp work, so the added resolution is of great benefit for me for allowing My projects longer life.

Think about many older films where the resolution was around 2k, that's the reason they can still be digitally enhanced and look awesome o this day. Many might not see the advantage, but it is there. Even myself felt there was no need, but after working a lot lately I truly feel 2.5k and beyond is an excellent starting point for the raw files you record.

peace
 
My original argument is that quality is not about bitrate. A badly shot product with poor audio is no better than well shot iphone product with good audio. It's how you use it that determines how good your production is. It's the same with stills, now we all have good quality family cat dog shots and video, but how much is really any good.
I have heard all lot of negative stuff about the original BMC basically being a hi-res brick that looks good. Not sure about the pocket.
 
Fresno Bob said:
Yep, that's what it really comes down to.
95% of people moaning about bitrates and DR stops will be spending $3k to shoot their cat in 4k...).
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Hey, have some sympathy for the people needing high-spec gear to shoot cat videos. I mean, have you ever worked with cats? Seriously, they're the ultimate prima donnas; never satisfied with anything. You pull out the 5D-mkII and they object, "that aliasing-ridden P.O.S. will make my beautiful whiskers all jagged.” So, you fire up the AF100, and then they invariably interrupt “How is the soft, mushy video coming from THAT thing supposed to truly capture my magnificence?”

Then, you break down and just hire a Red Epic along with $20,000 worth of Zeiss Master Primes. “Finally, some respect!” says the cat...until he looks at the dailys. “It's so sharp you can see my FLEAS!!!!” You just want to yell back “Well, of course we can see your fleas. It's 5k raw with primo glass. You can see EVERYTHING. That's the point. That's why it costs twice as much as my car!”

But...you hold your tongue. He's the talent, after all...the reason you're here. You know he's what the Youtube audience want to see. You know that the 10-second “Kitty Sleeps in Awkward-Looking Position Part XVII” will get 5 million views, easily, while your 30 minute, coming of age, magnum-opus short film, centering around a young woman's trials through an abusive home life, peer pressure, and the fact that she's a robot-zombie from the planet Zaltrax, goes completely unnoticed on Vimeo, despite all the months of effort you poured into it.

He knows this too. "Maybe I can just roto-out the fleas" you tell him. "Ok, maybe I won't pee on your clean laundry again tonight" he replies. "BTW, we're out of Fancy Feast."


Cats...they rule the world, I tells ya.
 
Wesley Byram said:
Hey, have some sympathy for the people needing high-spec gear to shoot cat videos. I mean, have you ever worked with cats? Seriously, they're the ultimate prima donnas; never satisfied with anything. You pull out the 5D-mkII and they object, "that aliasing-ridden P.O.S. will make my beautiful whiskers all jagged.” So, you fire up the AF100, and then they invariably interrupt “How is the soft, mushy video coming from THAT thing supposed to truly capture my magnificence?”

Then, you break down and just hire a Red Epic along with $20,000 worth of Zeiss Master Primes. “Finally, some respect!” says the cat...until he looks at the dailys. “It's so sharp you can see my FLEAS!!!!” You just want to yell back “Well, of course we can see your fleas. It's 5k raw with primo glass. You can see EVERYTHING. That's the point. That's why it costs twice as much as my car!”

But...you hold your tongue. He's the talent, after all...the reason you're here. You know he's what the Youtube audience want to see. You know that the 10-second “Kitty Sleeps in Awkward-Looking Position Part XVII” will get 5 million views, easily, while your 30 minute, coming of age, magnum-opus short film, centering around a young woman's trials through an abusive home life, peer pressure, and the fact that she's a robot-zombie from the planet Zaltrax, goes completely unnoticed on Vimeo, despite all the months of effort you poured into it.

He knows this too. "Maybe I can just roto-out the fleas" you tell him. "Ok, maybe I won't pee on your clean laundry again tonight" he replies. "BTW, we're out of Fancy Feast."


Cats...they rule the world, I tells ya.
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Haha. superb.
5k camera but we'll need to smear vaseline all over out Cooke lenses not to upset the cat
 
In preparation for buying a cat to film at 4k, what other kit and crew requirements would you imagine I'd need? I would have simply hired the cat for this purpose but maybe in the UK we’re behind the times, but I’ve called all the main Canon and Nikon dealerships and not one of them has a cat on their hire kit packages, I was shocked!

I was going to use my H4n to capture the sweet sounds of the cat breathing as it looks at the camera with curiosity, but I'm not sure that alone will do, should I add a Rode NGT microphone? Maybe I'm being amateur here as surely anyone watching a cat video has a 4k TV and a 9.1 THX certified surround system, so maybe I need to bite the bullet and involve a dedicated sound engineer?

I guess as well I'll need lighting to ensure I paint a scene worthy of cat, maybe I should spend about £20k on a set of ARRI LED Fresnels as otherwise I could send the cat to sleep with the heat? What do you think?

I realise, you can't JUST film a cat, for this we clearly need an Iscorama Anamorphic lens to capture the light bouncing off its eyes with the distinctive rectangular lens streak that Anamorphic brings to this cat party, so I'm about to spend £5k buying a mint example on eBay, obviously that's a non multi-coated version as I want the extra flares, as hey, I'm no fool, I was trying to get away with a Bolex Anamorphot, but figured the RSCPA might get involved for animal cruelty if I showed a cat such relative disrespect.
 
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P13, nice to see you in the sandbox as well. This thread is going to the dogs - is no-one serious about 4k anymore. Audio is fraught with difficulty and results can be cat as trophic. I recommend a beachtek or apparently there's a new Tascam which is supposed to be pretty good.
Lighting, well litepanels are prrrrtty good.
Cats make me sneeze.
 
P13 said:
In preparation for buying a cat to film at 4k, what other kit and crew requirements would you imagine I'd need? I would have simply hired the cat for this purpose but maybe in the UK we’re behind the times, but I’ve called all the main Canon and Nikon dealerships and not one of them has a cat on their hire kit packages, I was shocked!

I was going to use my H4n to capture the sweet sounds of the cat breathing as it looks at the camera with curiosity, but I'm not sure that alone will do, should I add a Rode NGT microphone? Maybe I'm being amateur here as surely anyone watching a cat video has a 4k TV and a 9.1 THX certified surround system, so maybe I need to bite the bullet and involve a dedicated sound engineer?

I guess as well I'll need lighting to ensure I paint a scene worthy of cat, maybe I should spend about £20k on a set of ARRI LED Fresnels as otherwise I could send the cat to sleep with the heat? What do you think?

I realise, you can't JUST film a cat, for this we clearly need an Iscorama Anamorphic lens to capture the light bouncing off its eyes with the distinctive rectangular lens streak that Anamorphic brings to this cat party, so I'm about to spend £5k buying a mint example on eBay, obviously that's a non multi-coated version as I want the extra flares, as hey, I'm no fool, I was trying to get away with a Bolex Anamorphot, but figured the RSCPA might get involved for animal cruelty if I showed a cat such relative disrespect.
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Make sure you get that cat outside, as we need to see those sun flares coming through shallow focus swaying grass and flowers.
The cat's going to need his own trailer, as obviously this will be done in the magic hour.
 
Fresno Bob said:
Make sure you get that cat outside, as we need to see those sun flares coming through shallow focus swaying grass and flowers.
The cat's going to need his own trailer, as obviously this will be done in the magic hour.
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You mean something like this? :cheesy:
 

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malibudutchie said:
Call me old school, but quality doesn't come from bitrates.
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Umm...when you're talking about the quality of the image itself, bitrate is most definitely one determining factor. Go out and shoot high motion water using 24 Mb/s AVCHD and you'll see this pretty clearly.

Personally, I think Panasonic should have included the 10 bit 4:2:2 AVCLongG on the GH3 as the default recording format. (And I still think a firmware upgrade to allow next gen H.265 would be a good move.)
 
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