GH3 GH3 with ProRes

roxics

roxics

Veteran
Why won't Panasonic give us ProRes or DNxHD 4:2:2 in something like the GH3? With the new BMC pocket camera hitting the market in a few months for less than the GH3, it seems like something Panasonic could do. Especially with how video targeted the GH line is. As nice as raw is, that is a lot of data so I can understand not going that far. But at least a 4:2:2 codec with less compression.
 
All consumer cameras using the AVCHD CODEC record in 8-bit 4:2:0 color-space, which is fine for everything except critical color work.

The new Blackmagic cameras are an exception to the market norm, and will likely be ignored by the major players until things start to effect their sales.

I definitely plan on adding a BlackMagic Pocket Cine Camera to my kit once they are available.
 
Except maybe that's not the norm anymore. Panasonic changesd that themselves with this camera including an intra codec.

I'm fine with 4:2:0 but at 10bit intra codec would be amazing.
 
Steve Kahn said:
Panasonic changesd that themselves with this camera including an intra codec.
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I think Panasonic added the I-Frame mode in response to Canon adding I-Frame mode to their 5D Mk3 camera. Unfortunately the data-rate they chose ( 70 Mbps ) was too low, making I-Frame mode semi-useless for any type of dynamic images. I am hoping the GH3 can be hacked so that the I-Frame data-rate can be doubled ( 140 Mbps ) which should change things quite a bit.

Steve Kahn said:
I'm fine with 4:2:0 but at 10bit intra codec would be amazing.
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The Blackmagic cameras are pretty much the only game in town for large sensor better than 8-bit internal recording under $10,000. I am hoping that Canon or Sony will step up and change this.

I am a huge Panasonic fan, but Panasonic seems to have thrown in the towel on this part of the market, so I will happily choose another camera brand.
 
Really? AVCINTRA is 100Mbps with 10bit 4:2:2 color. The GH3's 70Mbps 8bit 4:2:0 seems reasonable. What is the Canon data rate?

Yep. No doubt the BMCC is tempting. Will use that as an A camera with the GH3 the B cam on an upcoming shoot. And, I'm with you. I hold no brand loyalty.
 
Steve Kahn said:
Really? AVCINTRA is 100Mbps with 10bit 4:2:2 color. The GH3's 70Mbps 8bit 4:2:0 seems reasonable.
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AVCINTRA is supported by much beefier hardware than what the GH3 camera provides, so I don't think it's a good comparison.

I shoot almost everything with my GH3 in the .H264 50 Mbps mode, because this CODEC records a better image than 70 Mbps I-Frame mode when your subject or camera is in motion.

The big deal with the GH2 high bit-rate hacks was the removal of high compression from the AVCHD CODEC, which was reducing the image quality when shooting detailed dynamic subjects.

I think the same thing will happen with the GH3, though maybe not to the same extent. ( 50 Mbps .H264 mode is already very good )

Steve Kahn said:
What is the Canon data rate?
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91 Mbps

Steve Kahn said:
Yep. No doubt the BMCC is tempting. Will use that as an A camera with the GH3 the B cam on an upcoming shoot. And, I'm with you. I hold no brand loyalty.
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I will probably end up using different bodies for different purposes...

GH2: Doesn't have the moire issue the GH3 does ( I've been bitten by moire more than I like ), slightly wider FOV with the same lenses.

GH3: Better color, better low-light, 1080 60p frame rate, useable AF with video, weather-resistant body, longer battery life, etc...

BMPCC: 13 stops of dynamic range and better color
 
No offense to anybody here but why be so submissive? Obviously the technology is there for a smaller company like BMD to build a $995 MFT camera that can shoot raw and ProRes HQ. So it should be demanded from every camera in that price range from here on out. Even if they include AVCHD as an option. Even if you only plan to shoot AVCHD. The idea of hobbling the codec should be an outrage today. The norm should be moved upward.
 
@TheDiegp: No doubt the GH and BMCC are very complimentary cameras. Looking forward to having them work together.

@roxics: Been down that road with Panasonic before. Their corporate philosophy is one which protects their camera lines. That's what makes Black Magic different. I hope there will be other Black Magic Design companies too. I look forward to the Axiom open source camera. I agree the limiting codecs are laughable.
 
roxics said:
Obviously the technology is there for a smaller company like BMD to build a $995 MFT camera that can shoot raw and ProRes HQ. So it should be demanded from every camera in that price range from here on out.
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Blackmagic is trying to establish themselves as a camera manufacturer, so they know the only way to grab part of a very saturated market is to offer higher-end technology at a significantly lower price.

Canon, Panasonic, Sony are the "video establishment" who are trying to make a good profit while hanging on to a chunk of this market. From my perspective it appears that Panasonic doesn't think there is enough return on investment with the large sensor camera market, so they appear to be walking away from it.

Hopefully the Blackmagic cameras will ship on time and their tech will eventually mature. ( they could definitely change the market in a big way )
 
roxics said:
No offense to anybody here but why be so submissive? Obviously the technology is there for a smaller company like BMD to build a $995 MFT camera that can shoot raw and ProRes HQ. So it should be demanded from every camera in that price range from here on out. Even if they include AVCHD as an option. Even if you only plan to shoot AVCHD. The idea of hobbling the codec should be an outrage today. The norm should be moved upward.
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That's why I have 2 BMCC Pocket cams on order…if they suck - I can sell them. If they don't I will use them instead of my GH2. When I started out - you were locked in after you bought a $35,000 SD BetaCam….
You had to make it work. No more a slave to my gear. Free at last! Free at last!
 
roxics said:
No offense to anybody here but why be so submissive? Obviously the technology is there for a smaller company like BMD to build a $995 MFT camera that can shoot raw and ProRes HQ. So it should be demanded from every camera in that price range from here on out. Even if they include AVCHD as an option. Even if you only plan to shoot AVCHD. The idea of hobbling the codec should be an outrage today. The norm should be moved upward.
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I'm sorry but AVCHD especially at 50mbps is not a hobbled down video format. That is a pretty crappy attitude and one that shows a lack of experience working with the professional video market. Just because you want it doesn't mean it should be the norm. Video quality today is 10x better than it was five years ago but yet I hear the most complaints about how it isn't enough by the swarms of new people we have today. This is not being submissive but being realistic and understanding there is more to life than specs and pixel peeping when it comes to creating a production. Honestly 4:2:2 is overhyped. Sure it is better but most of those asking for it don't even really understand exactly how much they would gain by having it. Your video will not magically be better just because it is 4:2:2 and an i frame only codec. Most of us just don't freak out over silly little details that actually matter very little when trying to tell a story. We have learned there are more important things to worry about when it comes to video.
 
Many people still shooting projects on 7d's and 5d Mark II, Panasonic GH3 is better..... 5d Mark III and GH3 are the new wave of DSLR, I will be buying a Black magic Cinema cameras as well, but make no mistake the GH3 is an Excellent camera and the codec is very very good compared. to Dslr's I have been using in the past.
 
Thomas Smet said:
I'm sorry but AVCHD especially at 50mbps is not a hobbled down video format. That is a pretty crappy attitude and one that shows a lack of experience working with the professional video market. Just because you want it doesn't mean it should be the norm. Video quality today is 10x better than it was five years ago but yet I hear the most complaints about how it isn't enough by the swarms of new people we have today. This is not being submissive but being realistic and understanding there is more to life than specs and pixel peeping when it comes to creating a production. Honestly 4:2:2 is overhyped. Sure it is better but most of those asking for it don't even really understand exactly how much they would gain by having it. Your video will not magically be better just because it is 4:2:2 and an i frame only codec. Most of us just don't freak out over silly little details that actually matter very little when trying to tell a story. We have learned there are more important things to worry about when it comes to video.
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It's not a crappy attitude. It's a realistic observation that these companies are in fact hobbling these cameras. I don't think they are saying to themselves "we should make sure this product isn't as good as it can be" but I think they've stuck with AVCHD out of a "consumer" targeted mindset that people buying this camera don't need anything better. I've been working professionally with video for over seven years and longer still as an amatuer before that. So I'm not one of the people you are referring to. But I think that when a company like Panasonic sees people using their camera for video and hacking them for better bitrates, the response should not have been a (or just) 50mbps codec but the inclusion of something like ProRes or DNxHD.
 
roxics said:
...but the inclusion of something like ProRes or DNxHD
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Which would require dedicated hardware and a storage medium fast enough to handle the 175 - 225 Mbps data-rate, which would likely mean this becomes a professional only camera that uses $400 micro P2 cards and Panasonic would end up with 0.01 percent of the camera sales that an SD based camera would generate.

I am very curious to see how the Blackmagic Pocket Cine Camera can use SD cards to store video. I expect it will be very picky about the speed and quality of the cards you use. ( SanDisk Extreme 95MB/sec UHS-I SDXC cards may be norm for this camera )
 
TheDingo said:
Which would require dedicated hardware and a storage medium fast enough to handle the 175 - 225 Mbps data-rate, which would likely mean this becomes a professional only camera that uses $400 micro P2 cards and Panasonic would end up with 0.01 percent of the camera sales that an SD based camera would generate.

I am very curious to see how the Blackmagic Pocket Cine Camera can use SD cards to store video. I expect it will be very picky about the speed and quality of the cards you use. ( SanDisk Extreme 95MB/sec UHS-I SDXC cards may be norm for this camera )
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As of now I do not know what cards were used but new footage was released today from the Camera (Black Magic Pocket)

 
roxics said:
It's not a crappy attitude. It's a realistic observation that these companies are in fact hobbling these cameras. I don't think they are saying to themselves "we should make sure this product isn't as good as it can be" but I think they've stuck with AVCHD out of a "consumer" targeted mindset that people buying this camera don't need anything better. I've been working professionally with video for over seven years and longer still as an amatuer before that. So I'm not one of the people you are referring to. But I think that when a company like Panasonic sees people using their camera for video and hacking them for better bitrates, the response should not have been a (or just) 50mbps codec but the inclusion of something like ProRes or DNxHD.
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These cameras are not hobbled. If you look at native footage from a GH3 and think it is hobbled compared to how it would look as raw ProRes you have a serious problem. Why is it Emmy award winning pros are fine using a format like XDCAM but yet casual video professionals think it is sacrilege to use so called inferior formats? Even the top of the broadcast level formats uses heavy compression. It is about what formats work well for the situation and how to find a balance between quality and data storage. Most people don't want to have to archive video that takes up 5x the amount of space or have to shoot on super fast expensive SD cards. We don't even know yet what kind of SD cards and how stable they will be shooting ProRes on the BMPC. Look how many issues there are with the GH2 using 200+mbit hacks on SD cards. Heck even some 100mbit hacks need the ultra fast SD cards. The problem with a camera like the BMPC is if you shoot a lot you are stuck with a horribly inefficient video format. Sure it looks great but it has horrible data efficiency. I used to work with HDCAM which was an I frame only tape format with a higher datarate and I would take 50mbit AVCHD over that any day.

Honestly if the BBC is ok with 50mbit mpeg2 and some of the worlds most critical video engineers are ok with it then who are any of us to say it isn't good enough? If you want to claim the camera is hobbled why don't you back that up with some technical examples or proof. Why don't you prove to us just how bad the format is compared to ProRes. I would love to see your side by side examples as to how you came to the conclusion that 50mbit AVCHD from the GH3 is a hobbled format. I'm not saying ProRes doesn't have advantages but for many those advantages don't justify the extra requirements of the format.
 
I find there's is an unhealthy and unjusified obsession with bitrates. Considering TV still broadcasts in SD for the most part, where are we looking at this 220mbs footage?? WEb, Bluray ? Straight to a HD monitor in a edit suite looks great, but what then?
My opinion is the BMC is an ergonomic dog with non-intuitive menuing, I wouldn't buy it just cause it does 422 Pro res. A crappy wobbly shot on a pocket camera still looks bad in 10 bit.
You also need to upgrade your edit suite to handle huge files, just so you can add a bit of extra grade to your shot.
For me the hacked Gh2 and GH3 are more than enough to produce a sensational finished program.
Call me old school, but quality doesn't come from bitrates.
 
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Thanks, I'm looking forward to all the newbies buying one and posting their quality 4K videos. I mean, thats what its about...right.
 
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