Gasp! (Interesting Canon 5D & 7D rumor)

I wonder if Jannard wouldnt have said anything one year ago about the scarlet and epic and all the other products. Maybe Canon and Panasonic wouldnt have tried to implement hd video in photo cameras to get the soccer mom market ( for whatever it means... as a market). I think Jannard said to much because the competition is hard now. I do think buying from Red is being faithful to the real inventor of the HDSLR. It's like buying a Mac for quality compared to go PC for cheap computers.
 
Loic said:
I wonder if Jannard wouldnt have said anything one year ago about the scarlet and epic and all the other products. Maybe Canon and Panasonic wouldnt have tried to implement hd video in photo cameras to get the soccer mom market ( for whatever it means... as a market). I think Jannard said to much because the competition is hard now. I do think buying from Red is being faithful to the real inventor of the HDSLR. It's like buying a Mac for quality compared to go PC for cheap computers.
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I think, on one hand, he may be kicking himself. Canon has certainly seemed to realize the possibilities of large CMOS sensors in small packages. Even ARRI and others are building up competing cameras now for the 3K and 4K market. The element of surprise has been lost, at least somewhat.

On the other hand, he has accomplished at least part of his goal of inciting a revolution in digital cinema. He's been direct and dealt with his customers openly and built products based on their input. How many times have you emailed any major manufacturer and asked for a new feature and then actually received a reply from a senior member (much less the CEO...) rather than customer support agent #320194.

On the other other hand (he's got three, you know), he probably doesn't care. What RED is currently selling and what they are promising is still markedly different from what rumors we've heard - it's a whole business built around the RED ideology, including everything from cameras, monitors, lenses, and batteries to post software (REDray) and hardware (REDrocket).

Once again, I hope Epic-X, Epic, Scarlet, Mysterium-X and Monstro come quickly with few devleopmental troubles and absolutely kill. :beer:
 
Loic said:
I wonder if Jannard wouldnt have said anything one year ago about the scarlet and epic and all the other products. Maybe Canon and Panasonic wouldnt have tried to implement hd video in photo cameras to get the soccer mom market (...)
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Maybe, but consider that the convergence was happening anyway - point and shoot cameras had video even before the RED one came out and you'd expect that to continue improving, while 1-chap camcorders were also on a path of constant improvement. He certainly shook things up with the CMOS sensor in the RED One, but remember that CMOS sensors in cameras have been pushing into the market since about 1995.

Scrlet and Epic might have lit a fire under Canon, Panasonic et al, but I think the same cameras would have hit the street within a eyar anyway. After all, HD television has been in the works for a long time and when a new TV technology is rolling out then it's inevitable that there's market pressure for cameras that produce output o that quality. Panasonic, Sony, Samsung, JVC all have big consumer appliance businesses - ie televisions - and there's a lot of other companies selling HDTVs too. So the demand for increasingly capable camcorders was there in any case, and good-quality mini-DV camcorders like the DVX and XL and VX had all shown that there was a role for capable budget gear in the indie film world, indeed a bigger market than in professional broadcasting even though the margins are lower.

Michael, good point about Arri. To be honest I think they're the company he'd most like to replace, and then nibble away from below at the markets for Genesis, DALSA, etc. I've always felt the Scarlet was a project they decided to do because they could, rather than because RED wanted to own the prosumer market.
 
I don't think he regrets talking because he needs the buzz. Also, they probably could use the funding of the extra Red Ones that were sold after the promise of the full refund and exclusive Epic-X offering to them. He's got deep pockets, but why spend all your money when you know how to fund a business in a million ways. With Red One everyone wins.

And also, Arri releases an awesome 2k camera with the form factor of the Red One, Canon releases a 5D and 7D and scrambles to release something dedicated (I assume), maybe Canon releases an affordable sRAW module for their affordable 7D and 5D but it is a completely different beast than Red's quality any way you have it because of RedCode... and we haven't heard anything from Sony or Panavision yet.

I think Jim's big corporation know how is what makes Red so threatening and possible. He probably knew he wouldn't be taken seriously by them and that's why he went ahead. They are well ahead in the lead.

Still, the 7D will be a great buy for me and my personal budget. And down the line a RAW module, even if just sRAW, might be a nice little addition if I don't already own a Red camera. Also, if you only have a few grand for the camera and need to make your own projects then maybe you don't need it to be so perfect and sRAW is perfectly fine. But look at this: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=35158&page=6
 
ydgmdlu said:
I don't understand what you're trying to say here. You do realize that AVCHD is H.264, right? And by specification, it is a lower bit rate version (17 Mbps or 24 Mbps).
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yea but the compression algorithm is dedicated on AVCHD cameras. it performs better
 
hermmermferm said:
Going back to the RAW recording module:
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(without necessarily believing we will see this at the end of this month or even this year, but I am sure such a thing will come to market next year from someone...)


I note the 7d shoots full res (18mp) RAW in burst mode at 8fps, for up to 15 shots. HD is about 2mp, which is about 1/8 of that (let's use the remainder for audio...). So the 7d could shoot RAW 1080p at 24fps for about 3s...I suspect after looking at the various burst-mode options that the limiting factor here is the speed at which the camera can write to the CF card before a memory buffer is full. The data bus in the camera seems quite capable of shoving big streams about, it just can dump them out to a storage device any faster - the upper-limit specs on compact flash allow for 90MB/s (600x).

Now where I'm thinking they might go is to expand on the concept of the their accessory shoe, the WFT-e5A. This lets you get stuff out of the camera via wifi-g or
wired ethernet at 100mbit/s. Full-resolution RAW files from the 7d are reported to be 20-25 megabytes, so in burst mode it seems the camera is capable of pushing around ~150-200 megabytes per second. What if they bring out a unit with gigabit ethernet or eSata?
 
Hi Eddy: This is partly why I asked Question #2 here:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1747003&postcount=6

I assume the 7D has a multi-pin/multi-signal connector other than its HDMI & CF card slot, e.g.: the one which is probably used for attaching the 7D's WIFI accessory option ... and if so what kind of data can it handle?

Just imagine what folks like AJA, BlackMagic & others could do with it if this connector can readily output lightly-compressed, "uncompressed", HD, or better-than-HD motion pictures. Here's hoping!

Again: Anyone have a close-up pic of the 7D's accessory option connector? What can it do?
 
Eddy Robinson said:
I suspect after looking at the various burst-mode options that the limiting factor here is the speed at which the camera can write to the CF card before a memory buffer is full.
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Might it also have to do with the capabilities of the physical shutter?
 
stip said:
7d rumors started with a whisper too, like I said before, canon's RAW output module rumor first appeared in early spring this year. I think it is credible, either way, if you ask why to discuss this, then why you keep this thread alive by posting so much :)
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At what point did the 7D rumors start sounding credible? Compare that to where the rumors are now.

Face facts: Some rumors, no matter how good they may sound, just aren't true.
 
ydgmdlu said:
At what point did the 7D rumors start sounding credible? Compare that to where the rumors are now.

Face facts: Some rumors, no matter how good they may sound, just aren't true.
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About 400D time IIRC. And the other side of that half-full "fact" you want us to face is that some rumors are true. If folks can think it...it can happen.
 
ChipG said:
Whooo, you mean we aren't getting a 24p firmware update for the 5dii?

Say it ain't so....
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Jean-Jacques Annaud member of AFC (Association Française des directeurs de la photographie Cinématographique (Quest for Fire, The Name of the Rose, The Lover, Seven years in Tibet, Enemy at the gates, Two Brothers...) is shooting with the 5DII and has told a poster at Red forum:


He was able to tell me with an of informed assurance that he was certain that the 24/25p firmware update was coming.


So there. :-)
 
mhood said:
And the other side of that half-full "fact" you want us to face is that some rumors are true. If folks can think it...it can happen.
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Right. But how do you decide which rumors to take seriously? Do you take them all seriously? Do you only take seriously the ones that you happen to like? I think that the most useful position is to take no rumors seriously. If you never get your hopes up, you'll never be disappointed. In fact, you'll always be pleasantly surprised, which is always better than merely having your expectations fulfilled.

Rumors have a way of snowballing. Just earlier in this thread, people were starting to conflate the RAW module rumor with the September 29th announcement rumor. How did we get there? These are two separate rumors from two separate sources of questionable repute. The September 29th announcement, if it actually happens, isn't even likely to have anything to do with cameras. It's all just wishful thinking on the part of the rather narrow-minded members of a niche community. And people have a hard time learning from being burned on rumors. As soon as one rumor proves itself to be false, everyone's reading to jump on board the next one.

Anyone can start a rumor, and the more reasonable or attractive it sounds, the more easily it spreads. Rumors can even come from misinterpretations of the speculation and hopes of reputable sources. A Canon employee's "gut feeling" turns into gospel. And then people forget that rumors are rumors and start acting and talking like the future is written in stone. Whatever happened to "I'll believe it when I see it"? The guy from Cineform said that the RAW module is highly unlikely at this time, with sound analysis to support his points, and yet people are willing to believe against the odds, for what reason?
 
f64manray said:
He was able to tell me with an of informed assurance that he was certain that the 24/25p firmware update was coming.
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But what does that mean, exactly? Does he have first-hand knowledge of Canon's plans? Do we even know that he used this firmware himself? Or is it all just a gut feeling of his?
 
ydgmdlu said:
yet people are willing to believe against the odds, for what reason?
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Folks like to read interesting stuff on the internet. Folks probably aren't nearly as gullible as you seem to think they are. Rumors are by definition of questionable accuracy, from no known reliable source and whose veracity is not quickly or ever confirmed. I think you're taking all this a little too seriously here. I can accept the assumption that ydgmdlu is a real person as easily as the assumption that Canon may be working on a RAW module.

What does it hurt to be interested? ...a rhetorical question...my interests are totally unaffected by the opinions of internet strangers....beyond their occasional contributions to my interest. :-)
 
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I don't see the harm in talking about this rumor, if anything it's educational - I never even heard of sRAW before it. If it doesn't happen, oh well, I'm stuck with my 24p 7D, guess I'll have to cry myself to sleep ;)

Educationally speaking now.. David Newman says:

18MPixel RAW at 14-bit 24fps is around 864MBytes/s
1920x1080 RGB, that is still 300MBytes/s

Yet, Ikonoskop is developing a 240MBytes/s card to deliver DNG 1920x1080 @ 25fps. They claim that this is an uncompressed HD signal but how is this possible according to David Newmans math? Now I imagine sRAW is inferior to DNG, so IF the Canon RAW rumor is true, what's the actual speed they would need to pull it off? What's the undisputed read/write speed needed to pull an uncompressed HD signal from a sensor? I'm still confused.

Now where I'm thinking they might go is to expand on the concept of the their accessory shoe, the WFT-e5A. This lets you get stuff out of the camera via wifi-g or
wired ethernet at 100mbit/s. Full-resolution RAW files from the 7d are reported to be 20-25 megabytes, so in burst mode it seems the camera is capable of pushing around ~150-200 megabytes per second. What if they bring out a unit with gigabit ethernet or eSata?
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It would seem that this is the obvious option for Canon, yet the rumor says HDMI out, which is even more confusing!
 
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mhood said:
Folks probably aren't nearly as gullible as you seem to think they are.
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If you follow the known canon-nikon-4/3- rumor sites frequently you'll notice that they handle rumors very well and carefully.

I get ydgmdlu's point, but these sites have a rather high hit rate.

recent post about a mirrorless rebel in 2010 says:
"I’ll repeat it. I dub these CR0 rumors for the time being. I get a lot of wishlists. That being said, I felt the same way about my first 7D information back in January"

this is their january post about 7D.

http://www.canonrumors.com/2009/01/canon-60d-7d-cr2/


this is the first RAW codec rumor back in march.

http://www.canonrumors.com/2009/03/new-video-camera-system/
 
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ydgmdlu said:
But what does that mean, exactly? Does he have first-hand knowledge of Canon's plans? Do we even know that he used this firmware himself? Or is it all just a gut feeling of his?
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My god, didn't you read it!? The quote said "INFORMED ASSURANCE" What else do you want? What else could you need? "INFORMED" I tell you! :-)

Seriously though, he is using his own 1.1.4 firmware upgrade, and I think in his workflow chart it shows 24P. So I don't know if canon gave him some tips when he came up with 1.1.4 or what.

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=34997
 
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ydgmdlu said:
Right. But how do you decide which rumors to take seriously? Do you take them all seriously? Do you only take seriously the ones that you happen to like?
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Some rumors are very accurate and you can sort of tell which ones. These tend to be a picture or a document that would be extremely hard to fake. For example, before the original 5D came out there, a PDF was leaked that looked very official. Even the document author was traced back to Canon or one of its ad agencies. And before the Nikon D5000 came out, photos of it being filmed for a commercial got onto the internet. Then a few weeks before the 7D was announced, several pictures came out: a picture of the badge, then the top camera plate, then an ad poster. I wouldn't be surprised if some of these were official leaks.

So rumors can be useful. Of course, you have to weed them out. I tend to not believe specs all that much because anyone can make them up and as you see from history, most of them are wrong (except a few things might be right but you can't tell which will be which). Canon may even feed different people different specs just to find out who the leak is.

Personally, I don't think this RAW rumor is true because it seems too soon for that product to be done (the 5DMKII was announced just a year ago). Canon tends to be very slow and methodical when it comes to product design. They also usually announced just before the product is about to ship. So these products must have started manufacturing months ago. But who knows, I hope I'm wrong and a video camera pops out soon!
 
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