GH5 Game Over, Panasonic
- Thread starter Jim Simon
- Start date
They actually did:
- doing less processing after debayering: Incredible amount of texture and no sharpening artifacts
- Noise can be removed easily in Neat Video and doesn't leave any traces, and footage still shows way more texture than GH5 footage out of camera with noise reduction and codec artifacts included already
- better codec: No visible codec artifacts - even in underexposed ISO3200 clips
- non-crippling "Log" gamma: better dynamic range, no early red channel clipping (red becomes warmer and warmer till it turns yellow)
- footage can be pushed way further without strange noise pattern artifacts in red channel
After watching these clips side by side with similar clips I did with the GH5 for me right now it's indeed:
Game over, Panasonic
BUT, let's wait for some real reviews. Blackmagic cameras had to deal with some issues in the past...
OK, let's think about this for a minute... If this camera is so much more advanced in image quality... What will they bring to market next? The next Ursa camera could be jaw dropping in image quality.
But I'm still left wondering about moire and IR contamination, did they fix this? How is the rolling shutter in RAW? Will they give us a DNxHR choice or are we limited to Prores and RAW?
But I'm still left wondering about moire and IR contamination, did they fix this? How is the rolling shutter in RAW? Will they give us a DNxHR choice or are we limited to Prores and RAW?
Bassman2003
Veteran
You obviously did not wait before scheduling the funeral.
It may be a big thing to you but it is just a camera in the forever line of new cameras going into the future. I think Panasonic will find a way to continue operations...Interesting question.
The URSA 4.6k suffered from it's sensor in many ways. FPN, color shifting dependent on the exposure, magenta edges etc...
The Pocket 4K probably won't since Sony sensors don't really deal with any of these issues and we still have the natural looking colors and processing (if there's any at all) of the previous Blackmagic cameras. I don't see any hints of sharpening nor noise reduction in the source footage which is amazing!
About moire and aliasing as well as IR - I didn't see anything either yet in these examples which is really promising.
They will, but less in the indie or no budget narrative sector where a Broadcast look is not necessarily the right thing.
My point in starting this thread was to say that Blackmagic is offering a camera with better filmmaking features (and seemingly a better image) at a much lower price point.
Panasonic will need to up their game.
TheTrickster
Well-known member
I read somewhere (personalview.com?) that there are GH5 and GH5s units out in the wild with beta FW with different codec options - I wonder if Panasonic will try and provide some enhanced options (especially for the GH5s) to sway potential BMPCC4K owners - as Jim Simon is right - $1000 difference in price for the same sensor is huge and if the image quality is that much better.
The GH5 will appeal more to a certain crowd. Flip out screen, better battery life, small file sizes, IBIS. GH5s will require less post processing since the it has in camera noise reduction. They also both have continious auto focus. The GH5 and S can both record higher frame rates which appeal to some people.
In general though the Pocket 4k is superior in image quality and color.
In general though the Pocket 4k is superior in image quality and color.
stoneinapond
Veteran
joe12south
Veteran
Now that the footage is out and we can confirm what we pretty much knew would be the case...
1. The GH5 remains the best hybrid stills/video camera. The combination of features and how they are packaged remain unmatched. If you can only own one camera, the GH5 is the one.
2. If moving image picture quality is your primary concern, and you're on a budget, then the BMPCC4K is the camera to beat. None of the DSLR-style alternatives can touch it – including the GH5S and an external recorder.
I've upped my order from one BMPCC4k to two. The GH5 will remain my go to casual shooter (IBIS) but beyond that, for $1,300 its hard to justify the hassle of mixing cameras on a production. I'm glad that almost everything else I own, except for batteries, will interchange between the two systems.
1. The GH5 remains the best hybrid stills/video camera. The combination of features and how they are packaged remain unmatched. If you can only own one camera, the GH5 is the one.
2. If moving image picture quality is your primary concern, and you're on a budget, then the BMPCC4K is the camera to beat. None of the DSLR-style alternatives can touch it – including the GH5S and an external recorder.
I've upped my order from one BMPCC4k to two. The GH5 will remain my go to casual shooter (IBIS) but beyond that, for $1,300 its hard to justify the hassle of mixing cameras on a production. I'm glad that almost everything else I own, except for batteries, will interchange between the two systems.
Thomas Smet
Veteran
Perhaps I'm tired or something but I didn't see BMD post any side by side comparisons between the Pocket 4k and the GH5. Calling a camera terrible just based on memory is a pretty bold statement with absolutely no basis in reality.
Thomas Smet
Veteran
We keep going back to this but the Pocket 4k is not a better image. Its a different image for a different crowd. Sure unprocessed is great for those that want to tinker with the processing in post but not everybody wants to do that. Stop assuming every film maker wants to scrutinize over the level of noise reduction and sharpening in post. There are a thousand different levels of film makers out there with some not even wanting to grade their footage and just slap on a single lut and be done with it.
Processed vs unprocessed will always be up for debate and there will always be a world for both on any level of production. The film makers who obsess over pixel peeping will of course prefer the Pocket 4k but to call one superior or inferior is just plain ridiculous. No one camera is superior to the other and the GH5 is not lacking in any way. Its a camera designed to provide a pleasing image that doesn't require a ton of farting around in post. Some people love film making to create content that people can have an emotional connection to and not over how fine of a grain pattern the image has.
Every single aspect of the image being judged between these two cameras is absolutely not seen at all by 99% of the people in the world. Each film maker needs to select the camera they feel the most comfortable with and of course some should choose the Pocket 4k over the GH5 but in no way shape or form does that mean game over for Panasonic. It means a new choice for those that find value and benefit in the options provided by that new choice but thats it. There is no superior or inferior here. Just a different style of providing images out of a camera.
I myself like what I see from the Pocket 4k but I'm not childish enough to go around talking about an electronic piece of equipment like its some sort of competition. If one prefers camera A over camera B then go buy camera A and shut up. You don't need to convince the rest of us so you feel better with your decision. We are all adults and perfectly capable of choosing the camera that we personally prefer. If I do buy a Pocket 4k instead of the GH5s I will not think any less of the GH5s and definitely will not feel the need to stomp around online beating my chest talking about how inferior Panasonic is. If we are professionals we need to act like it.
Processed vs unprocessed will always be up for debate and there will always be a world for both on any level of production. The film makers who obsess over pixel peeping will of course prefer the Pocket 4k but to call one superior or inferior is just plain ridiculous. No one camera is superior to the other and the GH5 is not lacking in any way. Its a camera designed to provide a pleasing image that doesn't require a ton of farting around in post. Some people love film making to create content that people can have an emotional connection to and not over how fine of a grain pattern the image has.
Every single aspect of the image being judged between these two cameras is absolutely not seen at all by 99% of the people in the world. Each film maker needs to select the camera they feel the most comfortable with and of course some should choose the Pocket 4k over the GH5 but in no way shape or form does that mean game over for Panasonic. It means a new choice for those that find value and benefit in the options provided by that new choice but thats it. There is no superior or inferior here. Just a different style of providing images out of a camera.
I myself like what I see from the Pocket 4k but I'm not childish enough to go around talking about an electronic piece of equipment like its some sort of competition. If one prefers camera A over camera B then go buy camera A and shut up. You don't need to convince the rest of us so you feel better with your decision. We are all adults and perfectly capable of choosing the camera that we personally prefer. If I do buy a Pocket 4k instead of the GH5s I will not think any less of the GH5s and definitely will not feel the need to stomp around online beating my chest talking about how inferior Panasonic is. If we are professionals we need to act like it.
fboonzaier
Well-known member
+1000....better put than I could....in decades of working in the industry, I have never felt the need to take a single frame and magnify it 400 percent....for those who want to, instead of talking, just work on your projects....that's where the real pleasure lies.
Cary Knoop
Veteran
I think there is nothing wrong with competition, if the image quality of one camera is better than the other then one ought to be able to say that. We don't want to be silly fanboys but on the other hand we don't want to walk on egg-shells either.
A camera is obviously not just image quality, there are a lot of other important qualities.
For general handheld run-and-gun purposes, I would prefer the GH5 over just about anything else currently available in the market.
I think the GH5s is a problem though because the BM4K Pocket beats it both in price and image quality.
I expect the GH5s to come down in price significantly perhaps together with some kind of a firmware update.
A camera is obviously not just image quality, there are a lot of other important qualities.
For general handheld run-and-gun purposes, I would prefer the GH5 over just about anything else currently available in the market.
I think the GH5s is a problem though because the BM4K Pocket beats it both in price and image quality.
I expect the GH5s to come down in price significantly perhaps together with some kind of a firmware update.
filmguy123
Veteran
GH5, GH5s, EVA1 owner here...
The sample footage provided looks really stellar and is years better to my taste than my GH5s. Honestly I prefer it even to the EVA1.
I don't intend this to upset any GHx owners here because I AM ONE and if you'll recall my past posts from some time ago I agree with much of what Thomas is saying when it comes to workflow issues and what most people perceive and notice and I chose my cameras for a reason. Frankly my biggest concern is outside IQ with these cameras on a list of issues beaten to death, and I am more interested in what Panasonic will do in response. I do think the cool thing here is that THIS WAS A M43 SENSOR!!!!!
There isn't a lot of manufactures competing on this sensor size and I remain a huge fan of it, more than anything this shows me the incredible IQ it's capable of and that most complaints around a "smaller sensor size look" may in fact have more to do with mojo.
Long and short, I watched every single one of the EVA1 Share Your Vision videos and TBH I just don't love the look. There's a handful that look superior in proper hands, but then you go and watch C200 videos and BMD videos (these, or others) and the look is just right. It's got that softer, less processed, more organic look (sorry not trying to be "that guy" by using these terms - I think these vague words get tossed around because it's a very hard thing to pinpoint) but the GH5, GH5s, and EVA1 all have to coaxed to get rid of that more digitized look.
And yet, my most exciting take away from this post was the news that there's a new beta firmware of the GHx line going around and that M43 sensor is really capable with right processing. Bring on the competition. If history is an indicator the IQ of the BMPCC 4K won't be enough to pull me away from everything else practically right with the toolset of the panasonic cameras, but I do dream of the day where it's a both/and.
I wish I better understood what it was that creates such a pleasing image here. I think we all talk about it but most of us don't really know. Terms like processing, organic, sharp, digitized, 1:1 sensor, raw, filmic, etc. are all inadequate terms we try and use to pinpoint some aesthetic that we find more or less pleasing than another.
And while I haven't showed my mom or my girlfriend, I'm just going to go out on a limb and guess here that I played some GH5s/EVA1 clips back to back with these and others, they'd never be able to correctly identify which looks better or worse or what camera is what. They'd just say "umm I don't know they all look good, maybe this one?" and then pick out a shot they liked about a bug or sunset that has nothing to do with any of these terms that are so important to me.
The sample footage provided looks really stellar and is years better to my taste than my GH5s. Honestly I prefer it even to the EVA1.
I don't intend this to upset any GHx owners here because I AM ONE and if you'll recall my past posts from some time ago I agree with much of what Thomas is saying when it comes to workflow issues and what most people perceive and notice and I chose my cameras for a reason. Frankly my biggest concern is outside IQ with these cameras on a list of issues beaten to death, and I am more interested in what Panasonic will do in response. I do think the cool thing here is that THIS WAS A M43 SENSOR!!!!!
There isn't a lot of manufactures competing on this sensor size and I remain a huge fan of it, more than anything this shows me the incredible IQ it's capable of and that most complaints around a "smaller sensor size look" may in fact have more to do with mojo.
Long and short, I watched every single one of the EVA1 Share Your Vision videos and TBH I just don't love the look. There's a handful that look superior in proper hands, but then you go and watch C200 videos and BMD videos (these, or others) and the look is just right. It's got that softer, less processed, more organic look (sorry not trying to be "that guy" by using these terms - I think these vague words get tossed around because it's a very hard thing to pinpoint) but the GH5, GH5s, and EVA1 all have to coaxed to get rid of that more digitized look.
And yet, my most exciting take away from this post was the news that there's a new beta firmware of the GHx line going around and that M43 sensor is really capable with right processing. Bring on the competition. If history is an indicator the IQ of the BMPCC 4K won't be enough to pull me away from everything else practically right with the toolset of the panasonic cameras, but I do dream of the day where it's a both/and.
I wish I better understood what it was that creates such a pleasing image here. I think we all talk about it but most of us don't really know. Terms like processing, organic, sharp, digitized, 1:1 sensor, raw, filmic, etc. are all inadequate terms we try and use to pinpoint some aesthetic that we find more or less pleasing than another.
And while I haven't showed my mom or my girlfriend, I'm just going to go out on a limb and guess here that I played some GH5s/EVA1 clips back to back with these and others, they'd never be able to correctly identify which looks better or worse or what camera is what. They'd just say "umm I don't know they all look good, maybe this one?" and then pick out a shot they liked about a bug or sunset that has nothing to do with any of these terms that are so important to me.
filmguy123
Veteran
Ok, now this, wow. So the Leica SL mount has a short 19mm flange distance so EF lenses should adapt easy, this would make sense. The camera industry is moving so quick now it's hard to keep up.
FT5 rumor though - so this is basically not even a rumor, this site is good about ranking. It's at the point where there's extremely low chance this is not imminent.
DIRECT: https://www.43rumors.com/ft5-panason...-september-25/
UPDATE: https://www.43rumors.com/ft4-new-pa...nt-not-leica-sl-mount-and-ship-in-march-2019/
** FT4 = not Leica SL mount, rather a new mount, shipping march 2019
The BMP4K is capable of a better image with the right amount of processing. But yeah Mr. Smet is right, processing is time and money and some people like a quick turn out. This doesn't really apply to many if any cinema productions not that the BMP4K is really going to be a used on any cinema productions anyways other then indie or crash cam.
I'd buy it over the GH5 at this point though. I really, really love the GH5 though. A GH5s with better color science, prores, and IBIS would be my ideal camera.
I'd buy it over the GH5 at this point though. I really, really love the GH5 though. A GH5s with better color science, prores, and IBIS would be my ideal camera.
joe12south
Veteran
Whatever your feelings about processing like artificial sharpening and noise reduction, it's hard to argue with a straight face that a lack of compression artifacts is not "better".
joe12south
Veteran
The sample files are straight out of the camera. I'd be perfectly comfortable turning them over to a client for editing if I was only shooting. (Alternately you can record with a LUT baked-in.) And if I was responsible for a quick turn-around edit, I'd apply BMD's LUT and be done with it. If you have a half-decent graphics card, and you need to do so, Resolve's NR can be applied at export.
Basically, I see no meaningful downside to BMD's approach, and no practical upside (other than cheaper media) to Panasonic's approach.