GH5 Game Over, Panasonic

jonpais said:
Presumably, in narrative filmmaking, you've got control over lighting, set design, costumes and so on, whereas in documentary filmmaking, newsgathering and events you don't. Or am I mistaken?
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Yh, and you always want the least processing possible in camera - like ARRI, RED, VARICAM, EVA-1 (same codec as GH5(s) btw.) etc. do - unless you like the look of Michael Mann's movies...
 
jonpais said:
Presumably, in narrative filmmaking, you've got control over lighting, set design, costumes and so on, whereas in documentary filmmaking, newsgathering and events you don't. Or am I mistaken?
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To the degree that the troika of budget, time and talent allow: certainly. How does this question relate to the topic at hand, though?
 
Because you said that it’s the aggressive noise reduction at high ISOs that bothers you most about the GH**. I figure if you’ve got control over the lighting, it’s no longer such a big deal.
 
jonpais said:
Because you said that it’s the aggressive noise reduction at high ISOs that bothers you most about the GH**. I figure if you’ve got control over the lighting, it’s no longer such a big deal.
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No, what bothers me most about the GH5S is that by the time I add a ProRes recorder and XLR input, it costs almost 3X the BMPCC 4K, and I still don't get RAW.
 
joe12south said:
If the BMPCC 4K performs as expected (and there is every reason to expect it will) it will clearly, objectively, produce higher technical quality images than a GH5s paired with an Atomos recorder (currently the best you can do) for far less money. In fact, so much less that I can run coverage with dual cameras.

I'm sorry if that bothers some people, but I have always been very objective about my qualification of tools. Look back at my testing of V-LOG L. Not exactly singing Panny's praises, eh? But you can also look back and see me defend Panny's use of NR. I understand why it is necessary when recording to the format we have to record to. But that doesn't mean I'm not going to call it out when it is visibly over-agressive and fake looking (High ISO GH5S.)
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BS. There is actually NO REASON to expect the BMPCC will produce higher technical quality images, sorry but their track record SUCKS! I so wanted that not to be true, to the extreme that I waited and waited for the Ursa Mini 4.6 to be released with free copy of Resolve Studio, but the reports were so profoundly horrid I paid the full ride for the software alone ($995 at the time). The image was so bad and the reports so widespread to think otherwise memories are on a short leash. Alan Roberts of BBC described the color as "lurid pink." BMD fixed the problem for their unhappy owners by coming out with a new version of the same thing called the Ursa Mini Pro. That makes their camera track record a string of 1 success following the debacle.

GH5(s) should have serious discussion but you and Simon are responsible for logs of shill. The "Game Over" thread was created with no intention but to provocate. Panasonic nor BMD have anything to do with it, the "exhaustive analysis" from your renting a GH5s is tripe. BMD have their own excellent forums for serious discussion.
 
Tom Roper said:
BS. There is actually NO REASON to expect the BMPCC will produce higher technical quality images, sorry but their track record SUCKS! I so wanted that not to be true, to the extreme that I waited and waited for the Ursa Mini 4.6 to be released with free copy of Resolve Studio, but the reports were so profoundly horrid I paid the full ride for the software alone ($995 at the time). The image was so bad and the reports so widespread to think otherwise memories are on a short leash. Alan Roberts of BBC described the color as "lurid pink." BMD fixed the problem for their unhappy owners by coming out with a new version of the same thing called the Ursa Mini Pro. That makes their camera track record a string of 1 success following the debacle.

GH5(s) should have serious discussion but you and Simon are responsible for logs of shill. The "Game Over" thread was created with no intention but to provocate. Panasonic nor BMD have anything to do with it, the "exhaustive analysis" from your renting a GH5s is tripe. BMD have their own excellent forums for serious discussion.
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I initially disliked the 4.6K color science very much, but if you're going to mention all that you did, you might as well note they also improved the camera with multiple firmware updates including its color science.
 
Tom Roper said:
BS. There is actually NO REASON to expect the BMPCC will produce higher technical quality images, sorry but their track record SUCKS! I so wanted that not to be true, to the extreme that I waited and waited for the Ursa Mini 4.6 to be released with free copy of Resolve Studio, but the reports were so profoundly horrid I paid the full ride for the software alone ($995 at the time). The image was so bad and the reports so widespread to think otherwise memories are on a short leash. Alan Roberts of BBC described the color as "lurid pink." BMD fixed the problem for their unhappy owners by coming out with a new version of the same thing called the Ursa Mini Pro. That makes their camera track record a string of 1 success following the debacle.

GH5(s) should have serious discussion but you and Simon are responsible for logs of shill. The "Game Over" thread was created with no intention but to provocate. Panasonic nor BMD have anything to do with it, the "exhaustive analysis" from your renting a GH5s is tripe. BMD have their own excellent forums for serious discussion.
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Utter nonsense.

NO COMPRESSED CODEC can compare to RAW, and all GH cameras have drastically less dynamic range than Blackmagic cameras.
Real working pros, like a few right here on this forum cut Blackmagic footage in and out of Alexa footage on a daily basis. If that were remotely possible with ANY GH camera they would do it in a heartbeat.

And your statements about 'problems' or 'failures' that you 'heard so widely' about are also ridiculously exaggerated. I somehow am led to doubt whether or not you've ever actually shot with a Blackmagic camera after saying things like this.
 
DPStewart said:
cut Blackmagic footage in and out of Alexa footage on a daily basis. If that were remotely possible with ANY GH camera they would do it in a heartbeat
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Just shot this today ;)

Alexa LogC
ALEXA_zpsvzjcxqzs.png


GH5 VLog
GH5_zpsvbxxlugk.png
 
Panasonic is playing the “Long Game” with their GH cameras, for me it started with a GH2, then a GH3, then a GH4 and now a GH5. If anyone thinks the Game is over as suggested by this thread, think GH6…………and another winner.
 
Sage said:
Just shot this today ;)
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It looks like a good match.

Did you shoot anything with a bit more contrast ?

The DR in your shot is very controlled. I imagine you’d see differences to an Alexa once you have more lighting contrast.

Not only that, but Alexa by it’s nature infers a high bit depth more lossless codec and THAT is where I think you see bigger differences between the “consumer” cameras like the GH / GHs and a Blackmagic camera.

12bit LOG means a lot more wriggle room in the grade. A lot more image fidelity before anything breaks once you start pushing the grade around. An easy secondary key in mixed lighting to subdue a certain hue. All of which is harder in 10 or 8 bit more lossy codecs.

JB
 
You can match a GH5 to an Alexa. But obviously you might run into a situation where the GH5 cannot match. Depends how controlled your lighting is.

For me I am thinking about the BMPCC 4K, however a GH5s would be easier to match with my GH5. Quickness is post is a big thing for me.
 
John Brawley said:
It looks like a good match.

Did you shoot anything with a bit more contrast ?

The DR in your shot is very controlled. I imagine you’d see differences to an Alexa once you have more lighting contrast.

Not only that, but Alexa by it’s nature infers a high bit depth more lossless codec and THAT is where I think you see bigger differences between the “consumer” cameras like the GH / GHs and a Blackmagic camera.

12bit LOG means a lot more wriggle room in the grade. A lot more image fidelity before anything breaks once you start pushing the grade around. An easy secondary key in mixed lighting to subdue a certain hue. All of which is harder in 10 or 8 bit more lossy codecs.

JB
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Love Blackmagic. Huge fan of them

While there is an organic rolloff in the GH5-Alexa conversion, those top stops simply don't exist on the GH5. The v2 LogC conversion rolls off to about 77 IRE, while the Alexa rolls off to ~95

Very interested in getting a Pocket 4k.
 
Tom Roper said:
BS. There is actually NO REASON to expect the BMPCC will produce higher technical quality images, sorry but their track record SUCKS! I so wanted that not to be true, to the extreme that I waited and waited for the Ursa Mini 4.6 to be released with free copy of Resolve Studio, but the reports were so profoundly horrid I paid the full ride for the software alone ($995 at the time). The image was so bad and the reports so widespread to think otherwise memories are on a short leash. Alan Roberts of BBC described the color as "lurid pink." BMD fixed the problem for their unhappy owners by coming out with a new version of the same thing called the Ursa Mini Pro. That makes their camera track record a string of 1 success following the debacle.

GH5(s) should have serious discussion but you and Simon are responsible for logs of shill. The "Game Over" thread was created with no intention but to provocate. Panasonic nor BMD have anything to do with it, the "exhaustive analysis" from your renting a GH5s is tripe. BMD have their own excellent forums for serious discussion.
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- You're pointing out one incident and calling it a "track record." This is known as a "Faulty Generalization." You are purposely overlooking that A. BMD has produced other cameras without this one problem and B. BMD's only started making cameras 6 years ago, and has steadily improved almost all meaningful success metrics with each release.

- There is indeed reason to believe that a camera that uses a sensor from the same family as the GH5S (if not the same sensor), but isn't hobbled by a heavily compressed consumer codec and a crippled LOG profile, will yield superior IQ.
 
DPStewart said:
Utter nonsense.

NO COMPRESSED CODEC can compare to RAW, and all GH cameras have drastically less dynamic range than Blackmagic cameras.
Real working pros, like a few right here on this forum cut Blackmagic footage in and out of Alexa footage on a daily basis. If that were remotely possible with ANY GH camera they would do it in a heartbeat.

And your statements about 'problems' or 'failures' that you 'heard so widely' about are also ridiculously exaggerated. I somehow am led to doubt whether or not you've ever actually shot with a Blackmagic camera after saying things like this.
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The Ursa Mini 4.6 experience wasn't exaggerated, game over for Arri and Red. Where were you? I lived it for months on end. Philip Bloom wrote about it, the FPN that could not be corrected in post, the magenta hue. Repeated delays, broken promise dates. The global shutter feature that caused great excitement; rescinded. 15 stops of DR that didn't hold up under EBU testing.
 
Sage said:
Love Blackmagic. Huge fan of them

While there is an organic rolloff in the GH5-Alexa conversion, those top stops simply don't exist on the GH5. The v2 LogC conversion rolls off to about 77 IRE, while the Alexa rolls off to ~95

Very interested in getting a Pocket 4k.
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Yeah, I agree. But that is where the HLG profile comes into play as it has more legs than the gimped V-Log L. But then, it will be a touch harder to color match.
 
Tom Roper said:
The Ursa Mini 4.6 experience wasn't exaggerated, game over for Arri and Red. Where were you? I lived it for months on end. Philip Bloom wrote about it, the FPN that could not be corrected in post, the magenta hue. Repeated delays, broken promise dates. The global shutter feature that caused great excitement; rescinded. 15 stops of DR that didn't hold up under EBU testing.
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The GH5S has its own FPN problem. No camera is perfect and everyone acknowledges BMD's growing pains. None of the above changes the fact that the ability to record a 12-bit RAW image for half the price of a camera that can only record in a highly compressed consumer codec is a defining moment.
 
estarkey7 said:
Yeah, I agree. But that is where the HLG profile comes into play as it has more legs than the gimped V-Log L. But then, it will be a touch harder to color match.
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The HLG profile makes compromises, as well. (In fact, HLG is DESIGNED to be a compromise.) It's bit bucket is limited to the video range, and it's log curve only starts at 50%, doing nothing to expand shadow range. It's easier to work with than V-LOG L, and it doesn't look terrible at SDR, but it doesn't offer materially better range than V-LOG L.
 
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