GH5 Game Over, Panasonic

As I've said, I'm waiting to see real video from this camera before I make any judgments on image quality, cynical until the end.

There is one company (maybe more?) building a user swapped OLPF for the current (previous?) pocket, pull an Oring, pull the installed glass filter, insert the OLPF, insert a new Oring to hold it in place. Not the most simple method, but not rocket surgery either.
 
Greg_E said:
As I've said, I'm waiting to see real video from this camera before I make any judgments on image quality, cynical until the end.

There is one company (maybe more?) building a user swapped OLPF for the current (previous?) pocket, pull an Oring, pull the installed glass filter, insert the OLPF, insert a new Oring to hold it in place. Not the most simple method, but not rocket surgery either.
Click to expand...

Based on the other BM camera designs and assuming this one is the same, a new OLPF isn't going to be an option for many if you have to remove the greenish-blue IR filter. Even though doing that isn't very difficult, it would expose the sensor to possible dust and/or damage (in case you dropped it back in while removing it as it will fit through when rotated, or anything else). But that's really the worst case.

Currently, there is also an option for the older cameras that goes on top of the IR filter, which would probably be a bit easier/less risky to install for most...
 
filmguy123 said:
If it came out next year:

4k 60p 10-bit 4:2:2 w/120fps 8-bit 420
Internal ProRes RAW
USB-C port
GH5s lowlight + GH5 IBIS
+1 stop DR
< $2K
Click to expand...

GH5 and GH5S already have USB-C. I would like a firmware update to record to an external drive like the T5 too at the moment it is used for tethering and connection to PC for download of data from cards. Only other interest to me would be the UHD60P 10bit would save getting a Ninja V.
 
joe12south said:
The GH5s is a niche camera if there ever was one. I think it's ludicrous to think that the BMPCC4K won't substantially eat into the market of a competitor that costs twice as much for inferior PQ.
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To be fair the Pocket is also a niche camera. The film making community is a very tiny fraction of those that purchase cameras. There is event video, corporate video, sports, vlogging, documentary, news, seminar, concert and many other types of users out there. I agree the GH5S didn’t make sense for those users but then neither does the Pocket really. Users went nuts mainly due to the lack of IBIS on the GH5S. Those same users are likely going to still consider that a major fault of the Pocket. There are also a ton of users out there freaking out over auto focus which the Pocket doesn’t really have at all. It has push to focus but no continuous auto focus. Those two points alone are going to put off a ton of buyers. Not saying I agree with those users but it’s a thing.
 
Greg_E said:
As I've said, I'm waiting to see real video from this camera before I make any judgments on image quality, cynical until the end.

There is one company (maybe more?) building a user swapped OLPF for the current (previous?) pocket, pull an Oring, pull the installed glass filter, insert the OLPF, insert a new Oring to hold it in place. Not the most simple method, but not rocket surgery either.
Click to expand...

RAWLITE and Mosaic are the main two that I know of.

NorBro said:
Based on the other BM camera designs and assuming this one is the same, a new OLPF isn't going to be an option for many if you have to remove the greenish-blue IR filter. Even though doing that isn't very difficult, it would expose the sensor to possible dust and/or damage (in case you dropped it back in while removing it as it will fit through when rotated, or anything else). But that's really the worst case.

Currently, there is also an option for the older cameras that goes on top of the IR filter, which would probably be a bit easier/less risky to install for most...
Click to expand...

RAWLITE for example make their OLPF an IR / OLPF filter.

JB
 
Thomas Smet said:
To be fair the Pocket is also a niche camera. The film making community is a very tiny fraction of those that purchase cameras. There is event video, corporate video, sports, vlogging, documentary, news, seminar, concert and many other types of users out there. I agree the GH5S didn’t make sense for those users but then neither does the Pocket really. Users went nuts mainly due to the lack of IBIS on the GH5S. Those same users are likely going to still consider that a major fault of the Pocket. There are also a ton of users out there freaking out over auto focus which the Pocket doesn’t really have at all. It has push to focus but no continuous auto focus. Those two points alone are going to put off a ton of buyers. Not saying I agree with those users but it’s a thing.
Click to expand...

There's also the never actually shoots anything community, a group that buys more cameras than anyone.
 
joe12south said:
The GH5s is a niche camera if there ever was one. I think it's ludicrous to think that the BMPCC4K won't substantially eat into the market of a competitor that costs twice as much for inferior PQ.
Click to expand...

Inferior? I wasn't aware we had footage to test. :Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)

But in all seriousness, do we really expect the actual picture quality to be that much greater? I know there are some serious RAW lovers, and ProRes, well, its ProRes. But side by side, I struggle to see the difference in GH5S ProRes vs. All-I 400 Mbps. The only reason I'm Buying a Ninja V is to have HDR monitoring and the occasional 4K 60p recording. I probably will just use it as a fancy monitor most times as I'm happy with the GH5S internal.

Maybe my video palate isn't as cultured to tell the difference (or the stuff I shoot doesn't expose the All-I weaknesses).
 
estarkey7 said:
Inferior? I wasn't aware we had footage to test. :Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)
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The fact that this thread is this long without any footage blows.my.mind. I keep on checking back thinking some has been posted but nope, still arguing about vaporware.

But in all seriousness, do we really expect the actual picture quality to be that much greater? I know there are some serious RAW lovers, and ProRes, well, its ProRes. But side by side, I struggle to see the difference in GH5S ProRes vs. All-I 400 Mbps. The only reason I'm Buying a Ninja V is to have HDR monitoring and the occasional 4K 60p recording. I probably will just use it as a fancy monitor most times as I'm happy with the GH5S internal.

Maybe my video palate isn't as cultured to tell the difference (or the stuff I shoot doesn't expose the All-I weaknesses).
Click to expand...

irrespective of codec used I think there's a fairly consistent "look" to BM footage (that I would describe as a poor man's Alexa), and everyone is hoping/expecting to get it with this cam.

Panasonic has its own look, and I think the GH5s delivers a "lite" version of it, which means the colors are mostly there but it can be really "video" at times, which is a turnoff to some. (Myself included.)

I'm not that confident that the same won't happen with the pocket. I think a lot of people are getting hyped on price and wishful thinking...
 
dcoughla said:
irrespective of codec used I think there's a fairly consistent "look" to BM footage (that I would describe as a poor man's Alexa), and everyone is hoping/expecting to get it with this cam.

Panasonic has its own look, and I think the GH5s delivers a "lite" version of it, which means the colors are mostly there but it can be really "video" at times, which is a turnoff to some. (Myself included.)

I'm not that confident that the same won't happen with the pocket. I think a lot of people are getting hyped on price and wishful thinking...
Click to expand...

The Colorscience since the GH5 isn't actually bad anymore, the codec isn't a problem either (150mbps on the EVA-1 look stunning using V-Log). It is: Overprocessing like strong NR and sharpening, which makes the picture look videoish on the GH5/s, lacking fine low contrast detail but showing halos in high contrast areas. It needs lots of filtering and diffusion to make it less evident, but you can't get rid of it entirely...

So yh, the Pocket4K should indeed have a better IQ.
 
dcoughla said:
The fact that this thread is this long without any footage blows.my.mind
Click to expand...

It gives a sense for how much interest there is with this one, myself included

dcoughla said:
irrespective of codec used I think there's a fairly consistent "look" to BM footage (that I would describe as a poor man's Alexa), and everyone is hoping/expecting to get it with this cam.
Panasonic has its own look, and I think the GH5s delivers a "lite" version of it, which means the colors are mostly there but it can be really "video" at times, which is a turnoff to some. (Myself included.)
Click to expand...

GHa ;)
 
DeeZiD said:
The Colorscience since the GH5 isn't actually bad anymore, the codec isn't a problem either (150mbps on the EVA-1 look stunning using V-Log). It is: Overprocessing like strong NR and sharpening, which makes the picture look videoish on the GH5/s, lacking fine low contrast detail but showing halos in high contrast areas. It needs lots of filtering and diffusion to make it less evident, but you can't get rid of it entirely...

So yh, the Pocket4K should indeed have a better IQ.
Click to expand...

Deezid, there's no better example than your own work! Outstanding.
 
DeeZiD said:
The Colorscience since the GH5 isn't actually bad anymore, the codec isn't a problem either (150mbps on the EVA-1 look stunning using V-Log). It is: Overprocessing like strong NR and sharpening, which makes the picture look videoish on the GH5/s, lacking fine low contrast detail but showing halos in high contrast areas. It needs lots of filtering and diffusion to make it less evident, but you can't get rid of it entirely...

So yh, the Pocket4K should indeed have a better IQ.
Click to expand...

Better is subjective. Different without a doubt but it is highly debatable if it is better. Some people may prefer the look of the GH5.

We have a tendency to get nit picky of hair splitting pixel peeping details that a lot of people never notice. This sounds odd coming from me but really the visual difference between these cameras is very small in the scope of how good what we can shoot looks today. Any 4K modern camera in this class can hold its own next to each other and the days of “holy crap that looks better” are for the most part over.
 
native electronic lenses are a big part of the GHx video look some people talk about as well. NR 0, Sharp 0, and a native panasonic electronic lens in combo VS NR -5, Sharp -5, manual or adapted glass - very different look. And regarding the colorscience, Panasonic has its own brand but its largely considered excellent... and with LOG, highly adaptable (Sage's own GHa LUT is a good example).

So straight out of box, BM has a better look to my eye. In the right hands, the gap narrows quite a lot if you understand the GHx settings and post flow. I wouldn't actually call that any additional work to get the right look out of the GHx, minus of course the work of understanding. But once understood, it's zero additional work - just awareness.

Even so, the BM has an undeniably gorgeous look. GHx understood looks superb as well. GHx traditionally tends to win in terms of reliability, robustness, and feature set. This new BM remains to be seen. If this thing is issue free out of the box - reliable, no weird quirks under tough run and gun situations, etc. it is going to be the camera to beat. Big time. But as of today, there remains a level of pro comfort with GHx line and brands like sony/panni/canon/arri. They have the R&D and track record to show that I can in good faith travel to India and shoot for 3 weeks in 110 degree dust, heat, rain, and humidity with a single GH5 camera and have ZERO worries about reliability. I have shot thousands of hours on Panny cameras and never once had an issue or failure. Ever.

For that sort of work on a more pro level "double the cost" when talking about $1300 vs $2500 is pretty meaningless to me. It's almost not worth thinking about. Big whoop. So there is that perspective when it comes to GHx line.

That said, BM has been a newcomer and it's been what, half a decade since they've really been on the scene hardware wise now? They are maturing. I am hoping to see a robust, reliable, mature release with the BMPCC. It certainly sounds like things have improved exponentially in the past years. And that is good for everyone. It is very good for Panasonic users, and Sony users, and Canon users. I love the fact that a $1300 camera like the BMPCC just showed up. I've been over the democratization of digital film production for a long time. That ship has sailed. Bring on the $1000 12-bit internal RAW cameras shooting high FPS 4K and high DR and convergence of devices. All for it.

I think the resistance from most pro users has little to do with price or intimidation. The skepticism comes from the fact that for many people who rely on their cameras and truly work professionally, the difference of a few thousand is largely as meaningless as adding bacon. What matters is the total package: workflow, reliability, etc.

The BMPCC I would anticipate will offer much better out of box image (in terms of "filmic") than out of box GHx. It will offer marginal, possibly moderate, better quality than a well understood and tweaked GHx. It may or may not offer comparable reliability, workflow practicality, etc.

For those whom $1-$2k means a lot, the BMPCC 4k is a NO-BRAINER. For those whom it means little to, they will almost certainly buy this an impulse purchase toy and see how it fairs. I can't imagine for $1300 this won't be in my arensal - I'll probably wait until January to see how people are feeling about it in the field and for a couple firmware updates to get released and supply production/demand to stabilize. And if it outperforms my GHx line in every way, I'll be happy. Why wouldn't I be?

But I don't anticipate that. I have some healthy skepticism. Many here do. Despite what some say, max IQ is not everything. Content is everything, of which IQ is a large variable. But content suffers when cameras freeze, crash, cause issues, require too many accessories to manage hyper conveniently, etc. And there are as many different shooting scenarios as people. Some of these factors mean nothing depending on context, and some of them make a world of difference in a small mountain town in the Himalayas with a backpack, or a live event with one chance to get the shot, etc.

And as others have stated, if the BMPCC kills it in all areas of concerns - which I hope it does - we all win. I anticipate some competitive pushback from Panny... maybe a 2019 25% price cut across the GHx line? Maybe the addition of internal ProRes RAW support on the GH5S - now, wouldn't that be hot? - a more aggressive GH6. Maybe Sony will actually flippin' add 10-bit to their A7 line in a firmware update?

Who knows. But in my eyes, this is all good. This is all very, very good.

Well, if you are primarily concerned with making art that is. If you are primarily concerned with protecting business investments, you have been fighting a losing game for well over a decade now, so, probably time to get over that old chestnut and re-engineer some innovative ways to distinguish yourself and your value outside of your gear. Cause gear is the new word processor and laptop.
 
Sage said:
It gives a sense for how much interest there is with this one, myself included
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Right, if the thread was solely about the BMPCC4k that would make a lot of sense. But people are proclaiming the death of the GHx line based on a camera that isn't even in production (from a company with a history of messing up launches and QC issues with early units, mind you).

Put it this way, if this thing doesn't show up until 2019, or has some ridiculous glitches that make it unworkable, is the battle really over? That's obviously an extreme example, but it's not out of the question given BM's track record.

Believe me, I'm all for this thing blowing up the bottom end of the cine cam market, which will in turn drive prices down everywhere. But to crown it before it has even happened is absurd...
 
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