True, though for indoors or night at least it should be very handy.
GH5 Game Over, Panasonic
- Thread starter Jim Simon
- Start date
True, though for indoors or night at least it should be very handy.
DPStewart
Veteran
Indeed, but I have a whole armful of other dogs and lions, so the six months is an acceptable wait time.
And I highly doubt some other maker has anything on the horizon that will touch it for the money because not only have the big makers already just released their newest and best - that doesn't compete - or just like for the past 6-years nothing they put out will still offer an equal quality image at anywhere near the price.
DPStewart
Veteran
At NAB it was stated that it's the 5-inch touch screen that is used on the URSA Mini and the 5-inch Video Assist products. So it's definitely a good monitor. Is it bright enough for broad daylight bright sun? Probably not, but neither is the screen on ANY camera.
$1,295.... I'm laughing. I have a sinking feeling that ALL my non-Blackmagic cameras will be hitting eBay after these arrive.
As long as the Gh2's keep working, you might as well keep them, they are next to worthless on the used market. The gh4 still has some value, though that drops every new generation.
I still have hope for this 4k pocket, but I'm not going to trip over myself to get one until I can see what they messed up. Maybe they got this one right, or maybe it still has some shortcuts that reduce price and bring it down to a point where it has objectionable image issues.
I haven't read every post, but do we know what the data rate for raw recording really is? Is it uncompressed or numerically correct compression?
Cary Knoop
Veteran
Well the Z Cam E2 on a good sales day might become a real competitor.
Last edited:
DPStewart
Veteran
Yeah, the GH2's with the MOON T7 hack on them are actually pretty nice for 1080p.
The 4k Pocket records RAW in Uncompressed, 3:1 compressed RAW, and 4:1 compressed RAW just like the URSA Mini Pro does.
combatentropy
Veteran
Do you have an example? I remember reading a while back that 100 Mbps MPEG-4 was visually lossless for 10-bit 4:2:2 HD. It was in a brochure like 10 years ago for one of Panasonic's pro, shoulder cameras.
Since 4K is 4 times the pixels, I would guess that 400 Mbps 4K would likewise be visually lossless.
Actually your statement doesn't make sense: "highly detailed motion"? If it's all I-frame, motion has nothing to do with it, since each frame gets compressed independently.
Bern Caughey
Veteran
I’ve used a 5” Video Assist extensively, & the screen is meh.
filmguy123
Veteran
So in bullet point form, what are the main drawbacks of this camera?
- Poor battery life (20-60 min per battery; expect ~30ish)
- No swivel screen; no VF
- Possible reliability issues (or at least, not as robust as sony-panny-canon-arri-etc.)
- Quality of lowlight (base ISO 400/3200 as per rep) is TBD
- Windowed slow motion (I believe only above 60fps in HD mode?)
- No IBIS
Anything else? Especially compared to a GHx camera.
Not being negative, just trying to sort out the drawbacks from the info I can see and think through the gotchas.
Here are the solutions to the problems I listed
- External hawk woods gripper or sticky battery via d-tap, or other
- smallHD focus for swivel if needed
- Other are either unknowns, or not necessarily negatives as much as differences
- Poor battery life (20-60 min per battery; expect ~30ish)
- No swivel screen; no VF
- Possible reliability issues (or at least, not as robust as sony-panny-canon-arri-etc.)
- Quality of lowlight (base ISO 400/3200 as per rep) is TBD
- Windowed slow motion (I believe only above 60fps in HD mode?)
- No IBIS
Anything else? Especially compared to a GHx camera.
Not being negative, just trying to sort out the drawbacks from the info I can see and think through the gotchas.
Here are the solutions to the problems I listed
- External hawk woods gripper or sticky battery via d-tap, or other
- smallHD focus for swivel if needed
- Other are either unknowns, or not necessarily negatives as much as differences
filmguy123
Veteran
How might a BMD match in a workflow with EVA1 and GHx cameras? This looks nice, but it seems the color science may be very different and make it the odd one out?
joe12south
Veteran
What mudslinging? My feelings aren't hurt, but you seem to be trending that way.
1. Just as 10-bit 4:2:2 is demonstrably better than 8-bit 4:2:0, 12-bit RAW is demonstrably better than 10-bit 4:2:2. I'm not excited because of ProRes. I'm excited because of RAW. (ProRes is nice for quick jobs, but I don't personally care about that much.)
2. Pointing out that something - especially something attainable - is better doesn't equal trashing the previous iteration, it's recognizing progress. I've been working in this field at least as long as you, maybe longer. (35 years.) My first "NLE" ran on a Commodore Amiga. I remember Betamax as the gold standard right before digital took off - now, I wouldn't touch it. Does that mean that all of the music videos I shot on film and edited in SD on a Video Toaster were garbage? Of course not. But it also doesn't mean that the PQ of my GH5 isn't better in every single way. I can appreciate the GH5 for what it is and acknowledge that there is soon to be something better for less money.
3. I think if you looked back on history in this forum, you'd find us agreeing more often than not. In this instance, though, I think you're being a little short sighted focusing on storage concerns. This same argument came up in the SD > HD transition and then the HD > 4K transition, and in both cases, Western Digital and Seagate and their compatriots met the demand.
We all understand that no one solution fits all needs. Let me say, again, the GH5 remains the best, all-around, hybrid camera you can buy for any amount of money. Period. I'll keep mine as my day-to-day camera, probably until the GH6. The GH5s ... that's another story. I was going to buy one for a feature shoot when I get back to the states in September. Now, unless something goes wrong with the BMPCC4K, there's no way it's worth twice a much. It's not "Game Over" for Panasonic, but unless you *need* full-sensor 4:3 anamorphic, it's game over for the GH5s.
joe12south
Veteran
Look at what BMD is doing with monitors these days. It's reasonable to expect that at a minimum "quality" and brightness equal the GH5's screen, but big enough and have enough resolution to actually focus. It's really stretching to not recognize this feature as step forward.
joe12south
Veteran
Which GH camera are you comparing to? You can't get ALL of the above in a single GH camera, either.
- Remember, it's dual ISO, with a higher second base ISO than the GH5s, without noise reduction. The GH5s is clean at high ISO's, but the image looks like it was shot through pantyhose. DaVinci NR on RAW footage definitely beats in camera, any day.
- There are 1080P VFR rates that are not windowed. It windows at 120fps (not sure what rates before that.) Regardless, for most uses, clean and cropped is better than binned artifacts and wide.
- GH5s doesn't have IBIS, either. The BMPCC4K isn't really a competitor for the GH5, it's a GH5s killer.
filmguy123
Veteran
Thanks Joe! Good points.
Though the main thing I was looking for were more drawbacks of the camera - what do people see as the other gotchas or weak spots here besides what’s listed?
Though the main thing I was looking for were more drawbacks of the camera - what do people see as the other gotchas or weak spots here besides what’s listed?
Well it depends what you are shooting. I do not see the point of RAW for shooting a 3 hour event. The GH5S can do that which is why I have a GH5 and GH5S. For my needs they compete with $5000 and up camcorders shooting UHD60P like the Sony FS7 ( or the new Sony PXW-Z190 and PXW-Z280 ) not film cameras. To equip the BM4K I would need a battery system and a 2T external drive as well as another monitor as I could not see that screen up on a tripod above my head. Would also need complete remote control as without seeing the screen I could not control the camera either. I can do that with the Panasonic App that is available for iOS and Android. Not sure what the Bluetooth control is or does and with what operating system or if it up to developers to create one ? As a low cost way of competing with more expensive film cameras I would agree it looks great. I do not think it fits my needs or work flow though.
NorBro
Major Contributor
Besides any physical "limitations" or specs, my only concern is any FPN or moire.
Low-light and Blackmagic were never used in the same sentence before as their cameras (most of them) had no usable ISOs after 400 and 800, so it will be interesting to see if any FPN exists (and how much) with such higher ISOs being available.
Moire...in some situations/on some fabrics, it would scream at you from the BMPCC/BMMCC and it wasn't pretty.
---
You also want to keep an eye out on any other sensor issues from early reports/beta footage (even though IMO I really feel like beta testers receive perfect cameras and don't always share ALL of their thoughts with the public).
An uneven magenta cast in the UM46K/UMP is probably the most infamous issue that had a heavy split among users. Not sure if any one ever figured it out but there was various speculation/tests that blamed certain lenses at certain apertures, some kind of sensor coating not drying evenly, etc.
It seems like BM and their quality control is doing better than ever these days, so we'll see.
---
As far as matching the two...as with most good-looking cameras, if the shots are quick, definitely. But most people will no doubt see and feel a difference when working with the footage.
Nevertheless, I think it will be much easier to match them than a GHx and a BMPCC as the latter had a 1080p sensor and the footage straight up looked like Super16mm film...a dated look, but absolutely gorgeous cinematic quality if you're not too much into resolution.
Thomas Smet
Veteran
Agreed on most of this.
It is important to keep in mind the GH5 and GHs use a heavy amount of noise reduction in camera. We known for a fact the ISO 2500 on the GH5s has slightly less detail than the ISO 400 even though the dynamic range and noise is equal. This is likely due to a little bit of extra noise reduction. Will the Pocket use any noise reduction at all? Some will like that and some will not. The GH5(s) use temporal noise reduction while the Pocket will require slower noise reduction in post but might yield better looking results. So I wouldn't exactly say the Pocket will be better or worse in low light than the GH5s but it will very likely be better than the GH5 in low light and maintain better detail in the process.
The slow motion may be windowed but the GH5(S) slow motion also uses a very inferior form of down scaling yielding not so nice quality. Many are ignore to look past this quality hit because they have awesome slow motion. Windowed slow motion has the annoyance of the extra crop factor but if you can give it a wide enough lens to compensate for that then it should yield very good looking 2k slow motion. Granted not 240fps like the GH5S but I wouldn't be caught dead using the 240fps on the GH5S for anything remotely resulting in a pay check. Its cool for fun stuff but the quality is pretty bad.
There is that IBIS thing again which of course the GH5S or any other cinema camera doesn't have either. I understand that is a big loss to some people but it is not hard to get around this. I have done my fair share of holy crap grab the camera quickly and get that shot without having IBIS. It takes a bit more effort and planning and maybe a larger investment in glass with OS but it is far from impossible to keep a camera stable. This is really a feature of convenance and not a necessity.