FS7: FS7 successor (rumours/expectations)

I don’t understand the desire for better WB in EI.

This is a “for post” setting and the first step in post is to balance to the grey card you shot - or in the studio match to the Gretag card you shot

If u are shooting “baked to go” them you need WB and are not using EI - you are using a setting where WB is already available
 
Then ask why you can adjust color with a RED and ARRI when in their log modes. Its one reason those cameras are a step above the Sony's.

I have a client that would happily use and FS7 if their log mode was quicker to use. They use a RED. With that camera you can adjust your color pretty close and it comes into POST directly with that adjustment. Saves them a lot of time and that apparently matters a great deal to them.

However the biggest issue is for lighting. If you are shooting under fluorescents with Cine EI you cannot see what the heck is going on with off colors in fluorescents. As a result its very hard to light with gels that compensate or adjust properly. Even worse with mixed lighting and its even a problem if for a creative reason you decide to push the color outside of a standard balance.

Secondly it leaves the colorist more power over the image than the DP who might want something very specific. If you color your own footage fine - but you are in the minority of working DPs.

Frankly its just an incredibly dumb move on Sony's part presumably because they thought that's how film works. But i shot film for years and along with everyone else hated working under fluorescents and hated when I wasn't able to volunteer to sit in on a color session as all my work could go to hell in a second.
 
Of course some more tools could be useful to certain (mainly flawed) workflows, but I see them in the main as baggage that is not neeeded.

I can see some colour tools presenting the DP/director a better image on set.

I have a client that would happily use and FS7 if their log mode was quicker to use.

I would suggest they are indulging in a flawed workflow.

What is quicker than
get grey gard shot,
slide grey to perfection, or use Click grey
'apply this node to all shots'
About 3 clicks.

However the biggest issue is for lighting. If you are shooting under fluorescents with Cine EI you cannot see what the heck is going on with off colors in fluorescents.

If you are looking to filter/dial your movie lights to match the ambient lights then you need an RGB WFM. (or a colour meter with full RGB value recording)
1) get your grey card so it is being hit by an off colour practical/ambient light
2) note the size of the green spike or some numbers
3) frame up on your movie light (stopped down so its not clipping)
4) dial it/filter it until the green spike/numbers match

Such a complex task is usually done in a prelight where using the A camera is not ideal, best done with a meter, app or cheap DSLR with RGB histogram.

Secondly it leaves the colorist more power over the image than the DP
A colourist can ruin the work of any DP - this is a human problem not a technical one (a flawed workflow) - the DP should make arrangements like specifiying use of 'thier' LUT, ideally noted on the clap boarded on the front o

incredibly dumb move on Sony's part presumably
My understanding of 'log/EI' is that it is close to a pure recording of the sensor made with the understanding that any processes baked by the camera reduce DR, increase SN ratio and demand processing power from the camera leading to the need for higher compression ratios and lower HFR capabilities.
One gets EI - 'into the park' by some form of dual circitry before compression. (Blue boost on the sonys and ISO boost on the Varicam)
Every time sony add to EI they forget what EI actually is.

EI is like hard shocks in a performance car.. focused on performance.. and often complained about when one uses said race car for driving the mother in law to the mall.
 
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I hope no one reads this forum! ..

I gripped on a major brand product shoot* yesterday.. the DP did not shoot a greycard, or a gretag, and only evaluated the RGB WFM on the rented Sumo when I turned it on and pulled up the scopes to be full frame (showing clear clipping on the hero product) .. a human problem, a work flow problem.

*major brand product shoots are the situation where you need the correct colour.
 
I can see some colour tools presenting the DP/director a better image on set.


The centre spot luminance % on the F3 was a nice tool

I great tool to add in firmware/onto the FS7iii would be a centre spot RGB value meter.
 
OK I will repeat/change my mind/simplify my answer:

Things that would make me upgrade:
1. More DR (making Slog3 look good etc, having extra stops in highlight)
2. Better color and color separation
3. Beefier codecs esp. a good 2K 200mbps.
4. Make ISO/EI work like on the Arri where you decide how many stops above/below middle grey
5. Three XLR inputs
 
The no.4 would be welcome as in; give constant 14 true stops or so of DR and make it flexible by 2 stops or so to each side. Right now you can do a version of what you mention there if you rate the EI. Check out Alisters explanation of rating the EI. But from what I gather, right now, when doing that, we lose DR.
 
Most odd. I really dont get this concept that DR is not constant in EI

You check your scene DR and ETTR (or not as per your choice) - you then use curves in post to put your mid grey value wherever you want it

There seems a lot of confusion between 'shooting baked' and how to 'make digital images using image data collection on set and organisation of that data in post'.
 
LennyLevy said:
Then ask why you can adjust color with a RED and ARRI when in their log modes. Its one reason those cameras are a step above the Sony's.

I have a client that would happily use and FS7 if their log mode was quicker to use. They use a RED. With that camera you can adjust your color pretty close and it comes into POST directly with that adjustment. Saves them a lot of time and that apparently matters a great deal to them.

However the biggest issue is for lighting. If you are shooting under fluorescents with Cine EI you cannot see what the heck is going on with off colors in fluorescents. As a result its very hard to light with gels that compensate or adjust properly. Even worse with mixed lighting and its even a problem if for a creative reason you decide to push the color outside of a standard balance.

Secondly it leaves the colorist more power over the image than the DP who might want something very specific. If you color your own footage fine - but you are in the minority of working DPs.

Frankly its just an incredibly dumb move on Sony's part presumably because they thought that's how film works. But i shot film for years and along with everyone else hated working under fluorescents and hated when I wasn't able to volunteer to sit in on a color session as all my work could go to hell in a second.
Click to expand...

Maybe a dumb question, but when using custom slog3 white balance is possible. (Or was slog3 not the same as the log in Cine IE, now I am confused again :-) )
 
2 problems with Slog in custom
1- no S-Gamut3.Cine
2- no access to LUTs

Adding those 2 would solve the issue .
Re Morgan's comments about how to to work in the current system with Grey cards and parade waveforms etc. I think you've just proved my point. Its all a huge PITA. Grey card isn't a problem if you have time. My client owns a RED and 2 FS7s. The grey card routine is fine but for every shot its just 2 time consuming for their workflow. They're very smart people and know exactly what they're doing.
The parade routine you suggested for mixed light just sounds like a gigantic PITA compared to just getting a useable image and throwing a gel on your lights. I could never work that way.

My own solution is to have LUT's made up for various mixed light situations but that's still a PITA and inexact, and the FS7 won't even let me see the damn names of the LUT's in VF.
I also carry kelvin adjusting filters and a couple of Magenta filters for the lens but again its so much more complex than doing it in the camera.

I'm not sure what to make of the argument that adjusting the color balance would distort the purity of the Slog image. I mean they already allow you to jump between 3200 and 5600, why would giving you more Kelvin steps and add some magenta and green adjustments make that much difference? Likewise why does it work for an Arri?
I'm not sure what RED is doing. Maybe its actually the built in RED LUT that's being adjusted instead of the underlying Log , RAW or whatever it is image . All I know is the system works well and is a hell of a lot easier to use for the DP and for POST.
Maybe it would have required more processing power and more expense but I would have paid for that and Sony has kept the system at least into the F55. I don't know if the Venice is the same. My suspicion is that they just didn't not consider how real DPs work in the field and just tried to emulate a film workflow.
 
The red I tested some years ago had a single raw file - no iso or colour balance.

It did have a LUT that did colour balance and iso emulation on the fly that was written to the meta data and picked up by reds software.
It is a useful system but also can drive operators into the creation of non ideal files as many boost the iso on set and then stop down to protect the highlights that were not the actual highlights but the highlights of the lut - noisy files ensue.

Overall shooting a grey card seems not to me to be a huge pain.

In reality a bit of poly board or clapper usually gets shot - just like you old school beta ops used to shoot the reporters note book for wb.

This is so much easier than trying to rely on a monitor on set.. because that monitor needs to be perfectly calibrates and (the big one) your eyes can’t judge a monitor as they a set on AWB and play tricks under odd sources.

Numbers are numbers are numbers - shoot a grey card or colour card and give the post team a solid reference.
Any pro colourist does I’m sure have wb correction as their first node.

As for gelling to off colour lights- yes it is a pain- but a total pain without using tools.
 
A faster CPU in the camera so it can jump through menus faster.

As the menus are all well and good when you know where you want to go, a little lag isn't the end of the world.

But when you're feeling a bit lost, and under time pressure, as you jump around lots of menu items trying to find that one you forgot where it is, then the sluggish menu lag on the FS7 is rather annoying!
 
Morgan,
Yes I think its all done with the LUT on RED but in fact that's a very useful system - fast and easy to sue with great flexibility and easy to deal with in POST. An operator who doesn't know what he's doing can ruin anything, but its much easier to switch back to raw to check your exposure on a RED than its is to switch in and out of LUT with the SONY's.

Ultimately though its all academic because Sony is not about to change their system . If they did it would have been for Venice. Nevertheless I can dream.
 
I just took a look at the Venice menus on a website and indeed they have fixed it. You start with picking 32, 43 or 5600 as with the FS7 but then you can further adjust in smaller Kelvin steps and add adjustments to tint.
Hopefully Sony will now add this system to lower pri8ced cameras. I doubt it will make it into an FS7 upgrade but we can pray.

Does anyone know if there is a way that the Venice files will carry LUT info into POST? Seems like it wouldn't be hard to put in the metadata.
 
Wes. said:
Wow now theres something I'd be into for the fs7!!!
Click to expand...

Hold on. The LUT info does travel in the side cart metadata, no? That’s what Catalyst Browse uses.

It’s an NLE issue of not interpreting the metadata. I’ve been banging on about it to my mate at Adobe for years - and they just don’t think it’s a priority.

Ben.
 
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