FS7: FS7 Noise in Shadows

[Abaddon]

I got my FS7 not too long ago and I'm just working out the kinks. I've been noticing a ton of color noise in the shadows of my videos. I have the in-camera noise suppression set to medium. I was shooting in Cine EI with the ISO at 500. Is there something else I should be doing in-camera to get the noise under control?

 

[Donny 123]

Have you tried with the in camera NR off.. I wonder if that is effecting your footage .. which is already 2 stops over.. if my maths is right ..?

 

[Doug Jensen]

I was shooting in Cine EI with the ISO at 500.

But that scant information doesn't really tell us anything about the level you are actually exposing at. Where are you putting your whites or grays? What tools or methods are you using to judge the exposure? Are you recording XAVC-I? Where are you viewing the noise, before grading or after? And just as importantly, where are you grading? Are you grading in Resolve? Are you shooting S-LOG3 or S-LOG2? Are you applying the correct LUT for the version of S-LOG that you are using?

S-LOG on the FS7 looks fantastic when it is used correctly, so it is just a matter of pinpointing where your problem lies, fixing it, in then all will be golden.

 

[Abaddon]

But that scant information doesn't really tell us anything about the level you are actually exposing at. Where are you putting your whites or grays? What tools or methods are you using to judge the exposure? Are you recording XAVC-I? Where are you viewing the noise, before grading or after? And just as importantly, where are you grading? Are you grading in Resolve? Are you shooting S-LOG3 or S-LOG2? Are you applying the correct LUT for the version of S-LOG that you are using?

S-LOG on the FS7 looks fantastic when it is used correctly, so it is just a matter of pinpointing where your problem lies, fixing it, in then all will be golden.

I'm using the waveform monitor to set my exposure. I'm recording XAVC-I with S-Log 3. I see the noise before grading but it really stands out after. I'm using Lumetri in Premiere. I've tried various 709 LUTS and the result is basically the same.

 

[Doug Jensen]

I'm using the waveform monitor to set my exposure. I'm recording XAVC-I with S-Log 3. I see the noise before grading but it really stands out after. I'm using Lumetri in Premiere. I've tried various 709 LUTS and the result is basically the same.

Okay, so you are using the waveform monitor but HOW are you using the waveform monitor? How are you determining the exposure with the waveform monitor? Where are you putting whites, grays, or blacks, or whatever you are judging by? And how are you hitting that target accurately and consistently from shot to shot?

Also, Premiere is not an adequate tool for grading S-LOG. I certainly do not know any professional colorists who use Premeire for grading. If you're going to use S-LOG you need to learn to grade in Resolve. Period. If you choose not to grade in Resolve (or Baselight, or some other dedicated grading software) then save yourself a lot of headaches don't mess with S-LOG. If you're just going to dump a LUT on all the footage you could get results that are just as good, if not better, with a nice custom REC709 Scene File and not have to do any grading at all. S-LOG is for when you want to take your work to a higher level, and that requires more work in post with a software program that is up to the task. Premeire, FCP, Avid, etc. are not up to the task.

However, with that said, if you do decide to try to grade in Premeire -- are you using LUTs that are actually designed for S-LOG3 or are you just randomly flipping through various LUTs in Lumetri hoping to stumble on one that looks acceptable? That's never going to work. S-LOG3/S-Gamut3, or S-LOG3/S-Gmat3.Cine, or S-LOG2/S-gmaut each requires the application of a very specific LUT (different for each one) as a starting point for grading in post. Then you have to grade manually from there. So if you are not applying the correct LUT, and if you are not using the right grading software, and if you are possibly not even exposing correctly for S-LOG while shooting, then you will never get good results and noise will be a constant issue.

I'm sorry if I come across like a hard ass, but S-LOG is not to be taken lightly and requires some workflow education, new skills, and extra effort in post if you want to get better results than you could get by just using a regular Scene File. If you are looking for a simple answer to your original post, there isn't one.

 

[Doug Jensen]

Double post.

 

[Abaddon]

Okay, so you are using the waveform monitor but HOW are you using the waveform monitor? How are you determining the exposure with the waveform monitor? Where are you putting whites, grays, or blacks, or whatever you are judging by? And how are you hitting that target accurately and consistently from shot to shot?

Also, Premiere is not an adequate tool for grading S-LOG. I certainly do not know any professional colorists who use Premeire for grading. If you're going to use S-LOG you need to learn to grade in Resolve. Period. If you choose not to grade in Resolve (or Baselight, or some other dedicated grading software) then save yourself a lot of headaches don't mess with S-LOG. If you're just going to dump a LUT on all the footage you could get results that are just as good, if not better, with a nice custom REC709 Scene File and not have to do any grading at all. S-LOG is for when you want to take your work to a higher level, and that requires more work in post with a software program that is up to the task. Premeire, FCP, Avid, etc. are not up to the task.

However, with that said, if you do decide to try to grade in Premeire -- are you using LUTs that are actually designed for S-LOG3 or are you just randomly flipping through various LUTs in Lumetri hoping to stumble on one that looks acceptable? That's never going to work. S-LOG3/S-Gamut3, or S-LOG3/S-Gmat3.Cine, or S-LOG2/S-gmaut each requires the application of a very specific LUT (different for each one) as a starting point for grading in post. Then you have to grade manually from there. So if you are not applying the correct LUT, and if you are not using the right grading software, and if you are possibly not even exposing correctly for S-LOG while shooting, then you will never get good results and noise will be a constant issue.

I'm sorry if I come across like a hard ass, but S-LOG is not to be taken lightly and requires some workflow education, new skills, and extra effort in post if you want to get better results than you could get by just using a regular Scene File. If you are looking for a simple answer to your original post, there isn't one.

I appreciate the tips. I started messing with Resolve and using the Sony LUTS along with a little fine tuning. The images look good overall but I'm still seeing a lot of noise in the shadows. Again, even before I apply any color grading, I can see the noise in the raw footage. My exposure looked good while shooting and I don't need to do much tinkering with highs, mids, and shadows. So I'm wondering if there's just something not set right in the camera.

 

[rudo_fr]

Here are my tips: shoot with slog3 cineEI@800iso diseable NR and over expose white at 70 on your waveform (viewfinder with slog3 output) or 90 if you Apply lut 709 Inside the camera.
Next for grading correctly in adobe premiere, use software like lutcalc or 3dlutcreator to manipulate lut exposure because adobe change brightness of lut not the exposure. So you have to transform your lut by decreasing his exposure and then aplly it in adobe premiere lumetrie.

 

[Liam Hall]

I got my FS7 not too long ago and I'm just working out the kinks. I've been noticing a ton of color noise in the shadows of my videos. I have the in-camera noise suppression set to medium. I was shooting in Cine EI with the ISO at 500. Is there something else I should be doing in-camera to get the noise under control?

You should not be getting shadow noise at EI500. I mainly shoot at at EI1250 and never see shadow noise. There must be something wrong with the way you are exposing in camera. Could you post a clip so we can see? Even a screen grab?

Also, Premiere is not an adequate tool for grading S-LOG. I certainly do not know any professional colorists who use Premeire for grading.

I don't know any either, but you can get perfectly good results out of Premiere if you get your workflow right. Certainly, you can't blame shadow noise on Premeire, lack of colour fidelity, perhaps, but not noise.

 

[Doug Jensen]

Certainly, you can't blame shadow noise on Premeire, lack of colour fidelity, perhaps, but not noise.

I don't disagree with that, but that fact remains that if you want to do justice for S-LOG it requires a real grading program with nodes, better scopes, power windows, better internal image processing, and a tremendously faster and simpler workflow. Premiere is for color corrections and Resolve is for grading. I can pound a nail with a screwdriver but a hammer is always going to be the better tool for that purpose.

I also agree that that the OP is most likely underexposing and that is the root of the problem. He says "My exposure looked good while shooting", and that tells us nothing to help diagnose the problem.

 

[sleekmedia]

Doug,

New member here, and I am not trying to hijack the OP's original thread but do you really feel that FCPX is not up to par for Slog-3 grading of footage from say an FS5 / FS7?

I am familiar with both resolve and FCPX and have used both equally but I can say that with the new recent updates in FCPX a lot of resolve features (i.e. color wheels, color curves, hue/saturation curves, etc.) have begun to show up and with a lot of adjustment within those parameters I have been able to get recent Apple Pro-Res and Pro-Res Raw Slog-3 footage from my FS5 and shogun inferno to look pretty good.

Maybe not as good as some professional colorists who slave away for hours in resolve on one clip, but within 10 minutes of grading I can get a Pro-Res Slog-3 clip to look pretty respectable in the new FCPX. I can say that I still see a-lot of noise in shadows in low light situations which I still really haven't figured out how to work around and have somewhat tossed up to the FS5 being the problem so I can relate to the OP's original question. Obviously, noise will be there no matter what if exposure is not set properly although I really do not have much trouble unless light is limited.

I know you are somewhat the "Sony S-Log Guru" so your opinion means a lot us. If you feel that strongly about resolve being more capable than the new FCPX I would like to hear why so I can be sure to utilize that as my NLE going forward to maximize my footages IQ. Also, are there any tricks for reducing noise in low-light particularly on the FS5/FS7?

 

[cyvideo]

Basically I won't shoot S-LOG in low light situations because of the noise issues. If my scene is low light and has a dynamic range of about five or six stops to me it is a total waste of recordable data values to use S-LOG3's 14 stop range. Your code values in S-LOG3 are spread across a 14 stop capture from the sensor. Using S-LOG3 to cover a six stop range is using about 35% of the 970 code values available to you in 10-bit S-LOG3. In low light low dynamic range lighting good old Rec 709 can utilize 80-90% of your available data.

If I'm shooting interviews under controlled lighting situations I keep my lighting range to a good five stops or less and shoot in 709 and don't have any noise issues in post. Broad sunny daylight or extreme lighting dynamic ranges where there is plenty of light is of course a different story completely. Then I find shooting EI at 800 which is about a stop and 1/3rd over works well in post to control the heavy shadow areas with regards to noise.

Below 18% grey you have very little data to spread across your lower exposure stops. For that reason the SNR (signal to noise) ratio is going to be pretty low due to the lower code values used in the lower reaches of the S-LOG3 curve. The lower end of the curve has a much higher apparent noise levels in the signal which obviously makes it harder to control the noise levels in post.

Alistair Chapman give a much fuller explanation than expressed in my brief reasons above at:

http://www.xdcam-user.com/2015/10/if-shooting-in-low-light-dont-use-log/

Also his Understanding Sony’s SLog3. It Isn’t Really Noisy helped me some years back:

http://www.xdcam-user.com/2014/03/understanding-sonys-slog3-it-isnt-really-noisy/

Chris Young

 

[Doug Jensen]

Doug,
. . . but do you really feel that FCPX is not up to par for Slog-3 grading of footage from say an FS5 / FS7?

Yes, I absolutley feel that way or I wouldn't have said it. Professional colorists use Resolve or Baselight or some other dedicated color grading programs because those programs offer features, functions, speed advantages, and improved processing over the color correction controls found in the major NLEs. But if someone likes the results they get with another program, and they don't know any different, who am I to tell them they are doing it wrong? But when someone posts that things aren't going so well with S-LOG, then it is almost always going to be exposure mistakes or not handling the footage properly in post. And color grading involves much more than just dumping a LUT on all the clips on a timeline. As I said before, if someone is going to take that shortcut approach that then they might as well just shoot with a REC709 scene file in the first place and be done with it. But if someone really wants to take advantage of S-LOG -- then that requires extra time, effort, and attention. There are no shortcuts to doing it right.

I would venture to say that anyone who says their NLE is good enough for grading S-LOG is saying that out of ignorance becuase they don't know any better. Personally, I don't know anyone who actually took the time to master Resolve and learned how to use it properly and then went back to their NLE for color grading. What do professional colorists use? They don't use an NLE for grading and they don't grade to a computer monitor. S-LOG requires two things: 1) Resolve (or a similar program). And 2) Genuine video output from the computer to a real video monitor.

 

[Doug Jensen]

Basically I won't shoot S-LOG in low light situations because of the noise issues.

Chris, I respect your decision not to use S-LOG in low light and I wouldn't try to change your mind. But just for the record, I want to say that I shoot S-LOG or RAW for everything without any regard to the lighting levels or subject matter and I think it grades out fine in post. Just wanted to throw in another point of view.

 

[markfpv]

S-LOG is for when you want to take your work to a higher level, and that requires more work in post with a software program that is up to the task. Premeire, FCP, Avid, etc. are not up to the task.

I don't agree with this. While I have moved away from both Premiere & Avid, so cannot comment on them, I find FCP - especially when using third party plug-in like Color Finale is quite up to the task of taking S-Log to a higher level. And I'm personally faster using it for most jobs than Resolve.

I am familiar with both resolve and FCPX and have used both equally but I can say that with the new recent updates in FCPX a lot of resolve features (i.e. color wheels, color curves, hue/saturation curves, etc.) have begun to show up and with a lot of adjustment within those parameters I have been able to get recent Apple Pro-Res and Pro-Res Raw Slog-3 footage from my FS5 and shogun inferno to look pretty good.

I agree with you - with the latest features, I've begun even to use Color Finale less. I do think everyone should learn Resolve - or a dedicated grading program. But I think if you can get constant superb results with using something other than Resolve - just do it.

 

[Doug Jensen]

Mark, how well do you know Resolve?

 

[karma17]

IMHO, anything shot in CINE-EI can be graded to look like anything shot in Custom, but not vice versa.

For me, CINE EI is the camera's be-all-that-you-can-be mode.

A few months ago, I shot a bunch of low light scenarios, and that was my main conclusion.

 

[Joshua Milligan]

I have Resolve Studio and love what you can do in it as far as color goes, but my problem is round tripping. I like editing in Premiere better and would love to round trip to Resolve for the grade, but every time I try it, I end up with a mess and wind up spending more time trying to get things to round trip right than it's worth. Part of my issue is that I use mixed frame rates and resolution sizes (4K and HD), so when I send my project over to Resolve, it becomes messy. How do you get around this Doug?

 

[Doug Jensen]

I've only round-tripped a handful of times between Resolve and Premiere but everything went smoothly when I did. And there was certainly a mix of resolutions on the timeline but I can't recall if I ever mixed frame rates. If you're having trouble round-tripping, I'd take another look at your workflow and see what may be going wrong but I am not expert enough to point you in the right direction to troubleshoot it. In my experience it was very smooth. Also, I always round-triip after the baisic video has been cut and before effects, speed changes, graphics, etc. have been added. I have no idea how those things will round-trip becuase I have just avoided them altogehter.

I much prefer to completely avoid round-tripping by pre-grading the shots that I know I want to use in Resolve, and then exporting new ProResHQ clips that will then become my raw footage in Premiere. The big advantage to me with that workflow is that I get immediate satisfaction to see how the shots grade-out and what works and what doesn't before the edit. I can do a sort of rough cut and choose the best takes and throw away the rest so I'll never have to see them again in Premiere. A big advantage is that the whole time I'm editing in Premiere I am looking at finished, graded, beautiful footage on the monitors. Which is especially beneficial if a client or someone else will need to approve or see the cut before grading would have been done if I had waited to round-trip for grading. Obviously this approach won't work for some types of productions and round-tripping is the better workflow, but it works best for me 90% of the time or more. At anytime in the edit, if I decide I want to change the grade on one clip, a few clips, or even all the clips, all I have to do is open Resolve again --make the changes and then export the shots I changed. Premiere will automatically update the timeline with the new version.

I guess this thread has really taken a different route. What happened to the OP with his issues of noise? I'd still like to hear about his exposure and see some footage.

 

[Braindead@70]

Amen!