FS100 - highlights/profiles

The whole "knee" argument has been beat to death--I mentioned it only as an EXAMPLE of one of the lesser understood settings.
Just to clarify: I was suggesting that FOR ME, dealing with raw images (or SLOG) in post is what I prefer. I am willing to pay the penalty in post to have the flexibility.
For some, this is not appropriate and I understand. (and me at times too).

To MM's point: if you buy a Red to shoot to ProRes, it's quite silly since you're removing nearly every advantage by bypassing the internal capture.
Many, including myself, use it as a back-up and/or a faster path to post/proxy. However, if I'm intending to shoot ProRes, I'd prefer to use my F3.

I'd like to attempt to sway this thread back to an appropriate topic by mentioning that I did a shoot with my F3 and 700 last week and the images match very nicely! The 700 going to an external recorder looks beautiful, image-wise. We're getting the project into post today and I'll do some pixel-peeping to compare. Shot with cinegamma, so I'll be curious how much we can push it around in Davinci compared to the SLOG of the F3.
 
People buy RED and shoot ProRes because the harsh reality of media production strikes, budget pressure. It isn't quite silly, it's born out of necessity to get the job done at a reasonable price.

Shooting RAW and dealing with RAW in post is still way more than a lot of productions want to do especially as high bitrate ProRes is an excellent codec and gives all the necessary latitude in post.

This is also why Sony et al allow look generation in cameras like the F35 because they understand the pressures and the requirements of productions.

As evidenced by my friend working at the BBC they couldn't even be bothered/afford to claw back superbrights in post let alone working with RAW on a documentary. What gets shot gets broadcast with minimal fiddling. I know this is internet land where everyone shoots RAW and grades every pixel but reality of Prime Time TV production in the UK is quite different. They're not quite at rolling news level of don't care what crap hits the screen but it won't be long.

My clients are tight arses and probably wouldn't notice the work I do to preserve highlights with tinkering the FS100 setting. They're getting this for free because I care about the images I create and who knows some potential client might see my work and notice.

I was doing some pre-production yesterday down by the harbour and a "tool" with a 5D mkIII "educated" me about how effing awesome the video was his DSLR, filmic apparently. He was shooting hand held with a 30-300 zoom. One can only imagine how many shades of sh1t the footage looked. Apparently he has a thriving "video" business. Yikes!
 
The ideal is to have a clear interface between camera and post (for a non raw shooter)

To be able to load a look, to the camera through open published protocols

Enabling one to shoot a baked look in camera that is controlelled understood, repeatable et al

This would be for shooting high turnaround stuff

Now the ideal raw shooter would have this same facility and also record raw

Like me and my stills D3, I shoot raw and jpg, I deliver the jpg on speed jobs, and if I have made an error then I can dip into the raw and grab a recoverable file

Now the higher end jobs I cannot see that an Alexa (or Epic) would be not be used in conjunction with a few extra hard drives and a decent workstation

One reason I dont buy Scarlet is not becuase I cant afford the camera - but I know I cant afford the (or clients wont pay) the workflow

One batty idea (actually we did this for years) was to shoot Raw and jpg and then bin the raws as long as the jpgs were good, so the data load is temporary*

But the bigger picture of raw is when you actually start using it to cut the lighting budget and save time on set

Thats what I would be doing if I had an Alexa,

In stills world raw shooting has cut my on set time by 50% and lighting by 50% at a cost of maybe 25% more in post - I wold be lying if I said post did not go up

Also on the raw post thing I dont tinker with every pixel far from it - mainly I add a curve and CB to the entire job - a simple process and then tinker with the 2 or 3 off files..

S

* yep I go back to 70gb HD computers where stills caused data load!
 
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Some great postings...I agree with you both on most points. One I strongly disagree with, however, is the premise that shooting Red to ProRes is prudent (if born out of necessity, shame on the purchaser for not doing homework). Shooting Red to ProRes takes away near ALL advantages of the platform and one is better served with the F3 since it has more advantages at that point. (lower noise, better in low-light, arguably better DR, etc.).

They're getting this for free because I care about the images I create and who knows some potential client might see my work and notice.
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Amen to this...I am in the same camp. I could skate a lot of stuff by that most of my clients wouldn't notice, but I do and ultimately, I think it's the "I care" notion that they like and the reason they keep coming back. Client retention is a top-priority for me.

We are fortunate to have choices that match our ambitions and workflow. I'd dare say that most ALL of the camera we have bantered about are capable of awe-inspiring images when kept within their boundaries. All have both in-camera and post challenges. Seemingly, it's about choosing the battles and where you want to wage them. For me, it's in my suite where I have air-conditioning, beer close by, and seldom have clients over my shoulders. (if so, I wait until I'm close enough in post to have them there).

For me, less time on forums and more shooting is not the agenda! :beer:
 
morgan_moore said:
One reason I dont buy Scarlet is not becuase I cant afford the camera - but I know I cant afford the (or clients wont pay) the workflow
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It's not just your clients it's broadcasters too.

While NLE developers have improved support for RAW it's still far from plain sailing and even if it were there's still the buggeration factor of carrying vast amounts of data through the workflow only to be dumped on output. That's why there's a need to shoot ProRes.

On the small screen there's little to be gained by tying yourself into a RAW workflow only the relief at the end of the project that it's over. I don't think the stills RAW comparison carries across too well as the data and debayering effort is considerably more demanding on your workflow. ProRes and DNxHD cater for 99% of production needs (IMHO) for top end Drama and doc work.

Personally, I think a ProRes recording SLOG camera would be my next acquisition at the right price. It's a pragmatic balance of a proven lightweight codec plus enough latitude to caress in post. I have no pretentious of having work shown at festivals etc etc.

* My first computer had 1k RAM.
 
I have a brighter outlook on the future of raw or raw alike.

I think in two or three years it will work

Again the cards for my Nikon D1 were 64mb and cost more than a 32gb card of today

You talk about chucking data out for final delivery - so true

I think I would prefer a 720 raw camera and upsizing than a DSLR or even a 500PX raw camera however

To me its DR and colour over res any time

S
 
Im embarrased to show this, due the to stayed subject matter, but I will (it just came through) but it was the baptism of fire for the Fs100 - super contrast, super RnG, light levels all over the place, actually the sort of job were a flexible file would really come home much more than a controlled location .. I cant tell you the battle of nailing exposure

Clearly res is of no relevance, but ND shift, blown tops and all the rest still show at a low res of course my black raised profile and NDgreen killing profile linked before would have helped if I had had them in time!

http://www.gct.com/Trips/2013/Engla...3/Trip-and-Air-Details/Special-Video.aspx#top

I would have loved to give the clips a quick once over before they went off to the client.. it would be far better on a 500px raw shooter

S
 
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Again, I agree with most of this. HOWEVER--there are times when RAW makes sense. TV spots for example--it gives you incredible flexibility in post which does far exceed ProResHQ. ProRes SLOG rocks, but RAW rocks more. (again at a post-penalty). I've begun a new methodology of shooting RAW in-camera with a feed to an external box recording ProRes. (as a backup and alternate workflow--I intend to use the in-camera material, but the ProRes is a backup/safety.). However, if I don't NEED/WANT Raw or 4K, I see little benefit to it.
 
What's all that "post penalty" fuzz all about.
Last week, a client gave me some RED footage and needed a quick edit while breathing down my neck.
I dropped it in a Premiere timeline, did the edit, slapped a LUT on it, and rendered it out.
Took no longer, than any ProRes files. So what's the problem?

Frank
 
Postmaster said:
What's all that "post penalty" fuzz all about.
Last week, a client gave me some RED footage and needed a quick edit while breathing down my neck.
I dropped it in a Premiere timeline, did the edit, slapped a LUT on it, and rendered it out.
Took no longer, than any ProRes files. So what's the problem?

Frank
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You edited a long form broadcast RED project on Premiere Frank?

I haven't heard anyone using Premiere for broadcast other than the shower BBC Factual. They won't be editing RED.
 
In January i finished/graded a Bollywood feature that was cut entirely on PP working straight from the r3d files, no transcodeing.. they used a new 27" iMac, and fast arrays... they worked the last few weeks at my facility so i could get going on reels or sequences as they locked, i was able to watch them in action....

End game is PP + iMac + 25 Tb of Epic = fast & sweet way to cut a 3Hr bollywood epic....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirza_–_The_Untold_Story
 
I also edited RED 4k (or was it5K?) RAW in even less serious NLE - Vegas Pro 11. It was one of 8-camera coverage of an orchestral music.

A DVD has been published, so it must have worked :)
 
LeavingTheCandy said:
Do you have a Rocket? [i know, sounds like a personal question!] :laugh:
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LOL, no I don't - Premiere handles RED raw pretty well without a Rocket. All you need is a fast PC and a decent nvidia cuda card for real time experience.
Premiere even does a lot of things the RED software does.


Nirv said:
You edited a long form broadcast RED project on Premiere Frank?

I haven't heard anyone using Premiere for broadcast other than the shower BBC Factual. They won't be editing RED.
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It was just a 30 sec commercial, but I do about anything in the Adobe suite (besides some Resolve sometimes, since the implementation of Speedgrade isn't good in the moment).
I did tons of broadcast program since we moved to HD in 2001 in Premiere, never had any issue.

Premiere and AE where good enough for Dragon Tattoo and Avatar, so it should be good enough for me and the average broadcaster :)

Frank
 
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Postmaster said:
LOL, no I don't - Premiere handles RED raw pretty well without a Rocket. All you need is a fast PC and a decent nvidia cuda card for real time experience.
Premiere even does a lot of things the RED software does.




It was just a 30 sec commercial, but I do about anything in the Adobe suite (besides some Resolve sometimes, since the implementation of Speedgrade isn't good in the moment).
I did tons of broadcast program since we moved to HD in 2001 in Premiere, never had any issue.

Premiere and AE where good enough for Dragon Tattoo and Avatar, so it should be good enough for me and the average broadcaster :)

Frank
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I have no doubt people have edited RED on Premiere but I was asking if you had edited a full length with RED on Premiere? It's not until you have to media managing hours of RED footage and a 90 min timeline of RED that you can say for certain product X is up to the task of editing RED. 30s commercials are a proof of concept but don't answer the tough questions.

I had read something about Dragon Tattoo and Premiere but not Avatar. I'd be interested to know the detail of Premiere's involvement as software companies are always quite adept at over egging their involvement with projects.

Germany may be quite different to the UK but Broadcasters move at glacial pace and are still embedded in FCP7 and MC workflows neither of which had or have anything like the Mercury playback.

Short form (ads) finishing is dominated by Smoke being fed by FCP or MC. That all may change and Premiere may be the NLE of choice now, I just haven't seen any sign of that.

I didn't want to send this thread spiralling into a NLE debate just my observations on the current state of play.

Who am I to talk, I produce 10 min (MAX) animations edited in FCPX so I'm no bellwether for FCPX.
 
I would say that CS5 was not so hot on a long form production for me, about an hour and half with a lot of cineform based footage. I can speak about CS6 yet but CS5 was a little unwieldy when you get to that size a project. Luckily the .proj files are just XML so it's possible to get into them and salvage bits and pieces if it all goes horribly wrong.

I'm hoping that Prelude for logging/metadata and CS6 will be a better environment. Plus the hardware is better these days too.

cheers
Paul
 
I've got CS 5.5 on a medium box (single cpu w 8 gigs ram)
I edit 3 30 minute shows a week. Only recall crashing once about a year ago. Only lost about 10 minutes of editing..)
about once a week or so I edit a lllooonnnggg 4-5 hour timeline from an event webcast. Never had a problem. (then again, It's only 3 BIG files from 3 cameras, shoved out to a SD mpeg2 for archive)

EDIT: 16 gigs ram, not 8
 
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One problem with CS5 is the rendering times. Eventhough it's very easy to edit Red material, when you render it out...it takes a long time. A 30 sec commercial still works. But when I rendered 10 minutes of Epic material to DPX files, it took about one to two hours...it was ridiculous.
 
Yep - same with Vegas. No GPU acceleration with RED; fortunately my 1+ hour project only contained several takes from the RED, some 10 seconds each...
 
I have no doubt people have edited RED on Premiere but I was asking if you had edited a full length with RED on Premiere? It's not until you have to media managing hours of RED footage and a 90 min timeline of RED that you can say for certain product X is up to the task of editing RED.
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As i mentioned above... and even gave you a link to the film.... yes infront of my eyes for a few weeks as they fine cut and picture locked a 3 hour feature.. PP was as solid as solid can be, no issues with media management what. so. ever. none, nadda, zip, zero...

What more do you need? the phone number of the editor? I was supervising DI artist, supervising Colorist.. have a head credit if you rent the film check it out... my name up big and very red.... and they were sitting with the iMac in the corner of my gradeing suite for a week

Every frame (but for a few stock shots) was shot on Epic by DP Toby Gorman, 82 hours of rushes, all alive all the time, no proxies, no cashes, nothing but the Epic files running straight off the array....

The only issue for conform was shots with speed ramps.. those we had to rebuild by eye matching.. other than that... PP is perfectly suited to long form

I'm Avid centric.. but would never discount PP as a soild professional tool
 
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