Forget about fllm & broadcast for a moment...

I've been using DSLR's for video since the D90 came out as well and have been using the 7D very frequently for the past 3 months and I've come to this conclusion:

The 7D is a talking head + B-roll dream machine.

I've done countless one-man-band videos for clients that are interviews with B-roll where the final product has production value through the roof and has the client doing backflips. I've yet to run into a time during an interview where the camera overheated or bumped into the 12 minute limit and if I did, I wouldn't be worried at all because I'm recording sound separately and I can always use B-roll to cover the 5 second gap it takes to hit stop and then start again. (and if the camera overheats, let the talent finish their thought and then take a 5 minute break for them to drink some water, use the bathroom, etc.)

If I'm doing anything other than talking head + B-roll, I use a proper video camera. Although the video doesn't look as nice, it makes getting the job done much easier and let's face it, when's the last time you got hired to shoot a live conference and the client says "Now when Mr. Corporate Executive is up at the podium we want it to look like a movie"?
 
PerroneFord said:
Well, before you walk TOO far down the line, I am in the corporate market by day. The 5D/7D still have some MAJOR drawbacks for this market.

1. The 12 minute record time. If you're filming the bride coming up the aisle, and get into the vows, the LAST thing you want to see is that 12minute counter creeping up past 11 minutes. And if you are recording corporate functions, conferences, and PSAs like I do, having to stop every 12 minutes can be a royal pain.

2. Overheating issues. This can creep up as an issue even outside of the 12 minute limit. And it's no small problem.

3. The need to do separate sound. As a corporate shooter I sometimes cannot do separate audio. I do it whenever I can, but sometimes I really do need to run REAL audio back to the camera. And the 5D/7D audio is poor.

4. Monitoring. When I record conferences I often need to get the camera above the crowd. With the LCD on my EX1 or DVX I can flip it down to verify recording, battery life, media status, etc. Unless you go to a separate monitor on the DSLRs, you aren't going to be able to see any of this.

5. Single card. One of the great benefits of the dual slots for me in the EX1 is the ability to keep recording while I swap cards in and out. No such luck on the DSLRs.


I'm not saying that they can't get great results, but they are certainly not a cure all.
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I shoud have posted your quote in the other thread where you are defending these things, Perrone. Totally agree with you here, which is why the dSLRs at this point have limitations and you wont see every wedding and event videographer trading in for one of these...

I only use dSLRs for b-roll and 3rd cam :(
 
I don't know about event videographers but what about guys like StillMotion? I believe they use just DSLRs (several 7D's and some 5Dlls). And boy do they make them work. But I get the point ya'll are making...I just wouldn't be so absolute with my opinions in this regards.
 
chris f said:
I've been using DSLR's for video since the D90 came out as well and have been using the 7D very frequently for the past 3 months and I've come to this conclusion:

The 7D is a talking head + B-roll dream machine.

I've done countless one-man-band videos for clients that are interviews with B-roll where the final product has production value through the roof and has the client doing backflips. I've yet to run into a time during an interview where the camera overheated or bumped into the 12 minute limit and if I did, I wouldn't be worried at all because I'm recording sound separately and I can always use B-roll to cover the 5 second gap it takes to hit stop and then start again. (and if the camera overheats, let the talent finish their thought and then take a 5 minute break for them to drink some water, use the bathroom, etc.)

If I'm doing anything other than talking head + B-roll, I use a proper video camera. Although the video doesn't look as nice, it makes getting the job done much easier and let's face it, when's the last time you got hired to shoot a live conference and the client says "Now when Mr. Corporate Executive is up at the podium we want it to look like a movie"?
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I think I see where the largest disconnect is: what we're defining as work and what sort of people we work for. Everyone else's "clients" are being blown away by "production value"...

DOF isn't production value, to me. But, strapping a GH-1 to someone's arm while they ride the threads of a guitar is. I don't see throwing something out of focus as any added value to anything, I do see a creative dolly action/move or crane + dolly move as adding loads of value.

I suppose the people I do work for (for the most part) are very different from the ones others work for.

I'll try to keep that in mind, personally.
 
Kholi said:
I think I see where the largest disconnect is: what we're defining as work and what sort of people we work for. Everyone else's "clients" are being blown away by "production value"...

DOF isn't production value, to me. But, strapping a GH-1 to someone's arm while they ride the threads of a guitar is. I don't see throwing something out of focus as any added value to anything, I do see a creative dolly action/move or crane + dolly move as adding loads of value.

I suppose the people I do work for (for the most part) are very different from the ones others work for.

I'll try to keep that in mind, personally.
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My last two major assignments:

1. Film the highest paid public official in the state of Florida for a 20 minute PSA and deliver the product.

2. Film a 5 person panel, 2 cameras, full lights, sync sound, 4 PZM mics + 2 camera mounted mics, live audience of about 80, live video streamed statewide, 1hr 10 minutes continuous.

I have absolutely NO use for a 7D in that scenario. That for me is event work.

My live roll conference work is similar but it's a 3-4hr straight roll. No breaks. all sound is redundant, redundant cams, redundant recording mechanisms on each cam. Generally 2-3 10hr days. That is my conference work.

I had to set up a panel video for the H1N1 announcement. Same day edit, 4 panelists, each with a 5-15 minute separate speech, plus a 4-man open and close. 4 PZM mics going to sync sound, on camera mic, lights. Again, just no time to be fooling with a 7D.

I just got a scripted show.. education podcast, bi-weekly. Probably chromakey shoot. For that, a 7D might be ok.
 
Kholi said:
I suppose the people I do work for (for the most part) are very different from the ones others work for.
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I guarantee, the first time I have to tell one of my clients I need to stop their interview to let my camera cool down, is the LAST time I would have to say it. My video work would come to a screeching halt.
 
PerroneFord said:
I guarantee, the first time I have to tell one of my clients I need to stop their interview to let my camera cool down, is the LAST time I would have to say it. My video work would come to a screeching halt.
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Yeah, man. Don't think I had to say "can we take a break?". Hell no!

I secretly iced the the cameras and changed cards. They were good in three minutes, then put them in the freezer during setup change.

I'm really pushing it manning these janky things but I dutifully informed everyone on the job of tHe dangers. I am waiting for it to bite us in the ass any moment.
 
Kholi said:
DOF isn't production value, to me.
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But to many clients (especially smaller to medium sized ones, including my main client that is around a 20mil+ a year business with 100 or so employees) it is and perception is value. I'm not getting hired by filmmakers, I'm getting hired directly by clients, so if it's the clients' perception that DOF = production value that's all I care about.

Again, keep in mind I'm still talking about talking heads + B-roll, not music videos, and I've yet to interview a CEO who wants a wicked shot of him making his guitar squeal (although that would be sweet if I ever run into one that does).

Also, one way I have been making DOF = production value, is that it allows me to use existing surroundings and objects to "paint" with gradients. Knowing that the background will be completely out of focus I can use lights and walls, plants, furniture, etc. to create light spots, dark spots, gradients, and interesting shapes in the background. So instead of a boring in focus background of a white office wall and a plastic plant, I can take a light, a gel, and whatever is laying around to make nice looking, colorful, moody backgrounds. In short, I can make the shot look much more visually stunning at no extra cost, and to me that is value.

PerroneFord said:
I guarantee, the first time I have to tell one of my clients I need to stop their interview to let my camera cool down, is the LAST time I would have to say it. My video work would come to a screeching halt.
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I imagine if I was working for a client where things were that high stakes, they would also have the budget for me to have 1 or 2 backup cams ready to go.
 
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Kholi said:
Yeah, man. Don't think I had to say "can we take a break?". Hell no!

I secretly iced the the cameras and changed cards. They were good in three minutes, then put them in the freezer during setup change.

I'm really pushing it manning these janky things but I dutifully informed everyone on the job of tHe dangers. I am waiting for it to bite us in the ass any moment.
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I can't work that way. My job is "at the pleasure of..." One major foul up and I'm looking for new employment. So I do whatever is required to make EVERY shoot roll as smooth as butter. Everything redundant, everything able to record 2-3 times as long as we need to. I remember setting up a shoot a couple years ago. Supposed a 10 minute PSA for a high ranking public official. About 6 minutes in, I noticed that I had forgotten to hit the record button on the audio recorder. I was kinda new to sync sound. After sweating bullets, I asked for another take because the fist few minutes the subject was coughing quite a bit. So I got him water, we joked around a bit, and I got him to read through 8 minuntes... I stitched it together in post. And I never made that mistake again.
 
exactly. i agree these units are not the right tools to take it easy at assignments such as what PerroneFord described.
however, they can produce very pretty images on a small setup with minimal expense if you can direct the timing and people on set to get things under control and overcome their limitations.
regarless of different kinds of clients perception, they open up a world of optical possibilities bridging the gap between video and photography. that potential to inspire and empower visual artists not only videographers, filmmakers and storytellers is to my eyes a very good thing.
moving images is not only seen on television and blobkbusters... think of all venues with flat panels and places where sales are driven by visually appealing content. they are very interested by those DSLR pretty pictures in motion replacing DOF adapters and heavy camcorders.
the real downside for videographers ? a webagency down here stopped all hiring & rentals and now the art director produces all in-house content with 3 students on next to no budget while clients think they have upgraded and reached for the skies.
 
just did a 5 camera music show shoot - the 7d was GREAT as the artists CU camera for the music peices because they are a known short length - and everyone on set thought the image was amazing. (other cams were hvx200s and hpx500s) - biggest downside was focus for a rock artist was difficult as hell - it was ok though cause of the other cams

however the interview sessions were 45 minutes long - the 7d was set aside for those. Just didnt make sense and frankly, if i have the space, lights and a bit of time, the 500 looks every bit as good

7d is a fantastic OTHER cam to have on set - but not as a primary camera - no way

also had overheating problems occassionally and had to roll without 7d a couple times.
 
I am buying a 7D for exactly the reasons you mention. And I might shoot some stuff at work with it. But only when I can control the scenario. When I'm on other people's time, that thing will stay in the bag.
 
PerroneFord said:
I can't work that way. My job is "at the pleasure of..." One major foul up and I'm looking for new employment. So I do whatever is required to make EVERY shoot roll as smooth as butter. Everything redundant, everything able to record 2-3 times as long as we need to. I remember setting up a shoot a couple years ago. Supposed a 10 minute PSA for a high ranking public official. About 6 minutes in, I noticed that I had forgotten to hit the record button on the audio recorder. I was kinda new to sync sound. After sweating bullets, I asked for another take because the fist few minutes the subject was coughing quite a bit. So I got him water, we joked around a bit, and I got him to read through 8 minuntes... I stitched it together in post. And I never made that mistake again.
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Maaaan that sounds like HELL!

Have you lost footage yet? Omfg. Worst feeling in the world. I lost footage once and I almost threw up.
 
I think the moral of the story, as this has been for ages, there's no One Tool that's perfect for every use. The best thing you can do for yourself is work with as many of those tools as possible so you can see for yourself, what looks best where. I don't own one but I get to use HVX200's on a weekly basis, and I own my 7D, and there are a ton of features the HVX has that I would sell my kidney for to have, but my video business is not to that point yet as I'm still launching off the ground.

7D's not perfect, but for now, it's WOWing the clients I do have and work with in this price range. When I can, you bet your ass I'm getting a S35 Scarlet. I love the 7D, and it will always have a use, but there are better tools for different jobs.

I owe it to myself, and I owe it to my clients, to harness my vision in the best way possible. Anything less and you're cheating yourself as an artist.
 
PerroneFord said:
I noticed that I had forgotten to hit the record button on the audio recorder. I was kinda new to sync sound. After sweating bullets, I asked for another take because the fist few minutes the subject was coughing quite a bit. So I got him water, we joked around a bit, and I got him to read through 8 minuntes... I stitched it together in post. And I never made that mistake again.
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lol errors like this is what makes us experienced. When I started shooting with the GH1, I completely didn't think about the 30 minute limit and thought it was still recording. I mainly shoot erotica so I had to ask the girls to do the same dirty things all over again and of course the second time it's never as good as the first time, and I'll had to pay them for the extra time. And of course they didn't take me seriously as a cameraman anymore. So I'll never make that mistake again, I hope.

Don't you have an assistant who can do things like check audio-recording, by the way? We just can't do everything alone even though we would love to.
 
Depends what you're shooting. I use the HVX for pickup shots and fun reel projects for a NHL hockey team. It's resolving power is amazing, it's a tried and true pro cam, but it doesn't have that 'look' that the 7D gives. It is alias free and has no problems with finite patterns. Global shutter makes life easy, especially when you're close to your subject as it skates past you in a fury while strobe lights are firing off. It's a perfect handheld tool for this environment. The only advantage I see the 7D having over it is the DOF right out of the box look. I'm sure someone who uses these cams in other realms can elaborate more, I barely use the HV for it's full potential, I don't know what it can look like in a controlled studio situation with a DOF adaptor.

I would love to take my 7D in one day but there's never any real downtime.
 
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