First Impression; serious drawbacks
- Thread starter maxxfish
- Start date
Ian-T
Veteran
This is what I suggested in another thread (a couple of days ago) for a possible workaround. We were mainly discussing the lack of a cinematic blur (or something like that). But I hope one day someone can do a controlled test with a film camera vs a video cam and compare the blur at different shutter speeds (on the video cam) to try and see where thy will match the best. It might be different for every cam...but it will still provide some good information.
What were the drawbacks you encountered?
Impressive reels Max.
If you own a RED and an Arri and now the AF100, perhaps
a side by side test is in order? Show us the strobing
you are talking about. Do you have some AF100 samples?
brokenjack
Active member
It's always amazing when someone points out something that is so obvious in terms of visual artifacts, and so-called experts shoot it down with their "sweep it under the rug" answers. Is it fan boy lust? It really is detrimental to the credibility of the information gleened from these forums. I pointed out a similar issue with the HVX many moons ago, and got the same old "it's the same with film" answer, or "you're panning too fast". No. No. No. It's not the same as properly telecined film. There is as issue. The solution may lie in the way it is ultimately posted, but there is an in camera issue with "strobing". Even though I don't own an AF100, I know exactly what he is talking about. Max if you happen to be reading this, it's me Hal. I rent from Max on occasion, and can vouch that he knows what he is talking about. I'm interested in a solution to this problem as well, because it sucks, and again, it is real.
Oh yeah, Max, I finally quit that dump I worked for for many years, today was my last day.
Oh yeah, Max, I finally quit that dump I worked for for many years, today was my last day.
No disrespect brokenjack, but I DO own an AF100 and I don't see any strobing on my final footage. I'm sure Max knows what he is talking about, but how can you point fingers at people answering this question, when you in fact have no experience with the piece of equipment in question?
I also have not noticed this. I notice it when I have the cam hooked up to a monitor with sound, the sound from the monitor will be delayed, but when listening with headphones while actually shooting, I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary.
kylekmd
Well-known member
Maybe you're referring to the HP mode settings: LIVE vs. RECORDING (in the AV IN/OUT Menu). If you have it set to RECORDING you will experience a short "slap delay" in your headphones. Change it to LIVE and all is perfect in the universe again.
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So you think taking this approach will be of any use to anyone? Name calling and denigrating people that have spent more time to help others than I care to even imagine?
Its all down to perception. And maybe you used the same approach back then as well? If so I might be inclined to see where people were coming from.
Then why do you care?
No one is questioning Max's credibility.
To Max - having spent considerable time with the AF100. Through HD-SDI, Im just not seeing lag that prevents a focus pull or hitting marks. Not saying you arent having that experience. Do you have any way to compare side by side to another AF100?
On strobing, on the LCD I see strobing. On a slightly larger field monitor I see less strobing. On a Panasonic Pro Plasma its almost non existent - well Id say its the same as any 24P / 25P camera Ive used.
I equate it to the aliasing conundrum whereby if you were to take a highly detailed RED image shot at 4k and then view the original file in a resized window say around 480 size on your computer monitor - you see aliasing, whereas full size its non existent.
I think we have to include in the strobing equation, perceptual variations of individuals: I think some people perceive strobing more than other people. We need therefore to distinguishing between characteristics inherent to the moving picture (moving objects, number of static object, motion blur, shutter etc.) and characteristics inherent to the viewer. There is probably a lot of research on such perceptual variations. I need more espresso though.
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robcollins
Active member
Max, I have this cam if you want to do a side-by-side to make sure what you're seeing isn't particular to your unit. Email me if interested. - Rob Collins
It's a Richmond luv-fest. Hey Max, Dave Park here. I've only noticed strobbing on dolly shots with hard straight lines (ie- books, brochures,etc) I'll try to post an example so others can
comment. Otherwise, I've gone hand held and not noticed any jitters.
Hal ! Hey, whatz up? You made the jump.... good for you ! Shoot me an email.
dlpark
comment. Otherwise, I've gone hand held and not noticed any jitters.
Hal ! Hey, whatz up? You made the jump.... good for you ! Shoot me an email.
dlpark
brokenjack
Active member
Hey Dave, yes, back in the loop so to speak. I will talk to you soon. We'll have to hit Mekong for old time sake.
I knew this would ruffle feathers...That's just what I do. Congratulations Egypt! And you are right I don't have an AF-100 but may be looking to get or rent one. The point of the post was to shed light on the fact that someone had a question, and it was answered passively aggressive and vaguely familiar to responses to questions I had in the past not necessarily exclusive to this forum. Obviously Max is not the only one who has noticed it. Even if half the people see it and half the people don't, there is still a good chance it exists. I'm still interested in getting to the bottom of this, so maybe Dave you can come by the studio one day and we could take a look.
I knew this would ruffle feathers...That's just what I do. Congratulations Egypt! And you are right I don't have an AF-100 but may be looking to get or rent one. The point of the post was to shed light on the fact that someone had a question, and it was answered passively aggressive and vaguely familiar to responses to questions I had in the past not necessarily exclusive to this forum. Obviously Max is not the only one who has noticed it. Even if half the people see it and half the people don't, there is still a good chance it exists. I'm still interested in getting to the bottom of this, so maybe Dave you can come by the studio one day and we could take a look.
Here's a link :
http://vimeo.com/20450543
Sorry it looks so compressed, but is this what folks are seeing in the strobe issue ?
dlpark
http://vimeo.com/20450543
Sorry it looks so compressed, but is this what folks are seeing in the strobe issue ?
dlpark
I can't see any strobing in the Vimeo SD example you gave. I think, as stated earlier, that strobing is viewer-related as much as codec-related, meaning that different people perceive strobing differently. This is an issue for research.
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how about
http://vimeo.com/20429696
also see the "25p trouble or is it me" thread.
also there is little sense watching those clips scaled down. only 1920x1080 mapped 1:1 onto display can give an idea what's being talked about. so download and play locally from a good station. any rescaling changes the experience.
http://vimeo.com/20429696
also see the "25p trouble or is it me" thread.
also there is little sense watching those clips scaled down. only 1920x1080 mapped 1:1 onto display can give an idea what's being talked about. so download and play locally from a good station. any rescaling changes the experience.
Barry_Green
Moderator
That doesn't look right at all on vimeo, and doesn't look anything like my AF100 (or any of my 24p cameras). It looks like you have some sort of almost rhythmic pulsing in the image. The judder of 24p is a continuous, fixed displacement in time, and it is always the same, and there's nothing the AF100 can do with it to screw it up. If you were executing a perfectly smooth, perfectly continuous pan, then you should see continuous movement. If you pan too fast, you'll see strobing, but it should still be continuous.
I would suspect there's something downstream that's causing the issue. Does it look that way on a monitor, live when you're shooting? Does it look that way in the LCD live when you're shooting? It shouldn't. That's not what an AF100 looks like.
It says you shot 25p and then exported to vimeo. Does vimeo resample to 24p? If so, that would explain it.
EDIT - downloaded and watched the full-screen file. That looks like 25p that's panning too fast.
I'll go shoot some comparable clips, at smooth panning speeds, in both 24p and 25p and post 'em.
I would suspect there's something downstream that's causing the issue. Does it look that way on a monitor, live when you're shooting? Does it look that way in the LCD live when you're shooting? It shouldn't. That's not what an AF100 looks like.
It says you shot 25p and then exported to vimeo. Does vimeo resample to 24p? If so, that would explain it.
EDIT - downloaded and watched the full-screen file. That looks like 25p that's panning too fast.
I'll go shoot some comparable clips, at smooth panning speeds, in both 24p and 25p and post 'em.