First Impression; serious drawbacks

M

maxxfish

Member
Today I unboxed the AF100 and fired it up for the first time. Pretty cool, but at the moment there are some serious drawbacks that could be dealbreakers for this camera on higher-end productions.

#1. Strobing. No, it's not because I'm panning too fast, I understand that phenomenon. My RED doesn't do it, my EX-1 doesn't do it, and my Arri 435 doesn't do it. At 24fps with 180-degree shutter, there is an unacceptable amount of strobing. Searched the forums, and still haven't found a solution.

#2. Image delay in monitors. The on-board monitor and the SDI-out have a delay. It's noiceable enough that pulling focus from the moniotr is affected, and I'd hate to deal with any lighting/acting cues. Once again, I searched but didn't find anything. Thoughts?

Thanks in advance, Max

Max Fischer
www.maxfischer.net
 
I've not experienced the "problems" you are reporting.

Perhaps you should invest a little more time with the camera before proclaiming that it has, "serious drawbacks."

As for "higher-end" productions, the AF100 is not, nor does any credible source claim it's in that category. Use your Red for those projects.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo
 
I've commented many times about the "strobing" I see on my 7D and GH1. I agree it's different from the strobing you get from progressive frame broadcast video cameras. I do not see it on my Varicam when shooting in 25P. It's like a shutter/image lag - very unique. I was pretty well shouted down about it when I brought it up on the GH1 forum months ago. But I believe it is there with all DSLR-based CMOS sensors (not the RED/Alexa level). I haven't enough experience with the AF100 to comment on that camera.

I've come to accept it on my GH1.3 and work around it accordingly. I avoid "medium" speed pans. Fast or slow are okay. It appears worse on broadcast monitors, particularly broadcast CRT's, less so on computer monitors and Vimeo. But no-one else has mentioned it on this forum so it's not an issue for most people, but I agree with you in principle about the strobing without seeing your shots in person. My comments relate to the GH1, but it sounds the same as what you are describing.
 
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The rolling shutter on the AF100 behaves similarly to the Red; in other words, without issues for even moderately experienced 24p operators.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo
 
Maybe it is the rolling shutter vs the global shutter as used in the Varicam which of course uses CCD's. It does require a rethink in shooting style; you just have to aware of it.
 
Ticheli said:
The rolling shutter on the AF100 behaves similarly to the Red; in other words, without issues for even moderately experienced 24p operators.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo
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Gee, thanks for your constructive input. I don't know what I was thinking, taking the time to post this silly observation since I'm such a newbie at this whole cinematography thing. I guess I'll be ordering those Filmmaking DVDs before I go out and shoot my first short.

Max Fischer
www.maxfischer.net
 
maxxfish said:
Gee, thanks for your constructive input. I don't know what I was thinking, taking the time to post this silly observation since I'm such a newbie at this whole cinematography thing. I guess I'll be ordering those Filmmaking DVDs before I go out and shoot my first short.

Max Fischer
www.maxfischer.net
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I'm a n00b, but I know enough that following what you clearly perceived as a slight (the implication being that you're not even a moderately experienced 24p op), with even more caustic sarcasm is unprofessional, and totally unnecessary here. How about providing some sample footage, metadata, and settings instead?
 
Wow, was there something in my initial post that was inappropriate? I tried to make clear simple observations and ask for honest input, and so far I've only gotten anything valuable from Peter C.....
 
Well, I think the thing that set folks off was the assertion that the camera has some fundamental "serious drawbacks" when, in the experience of those who have had it a few weeks and are producing professional work on it, there aren't any "serious drawbacks".

Leo, the first guy who responded, has a VariCam and a Red One and has shot them side-by-side with his AF100, and if there was a substantial difference he would have noted it long ago.

I think if your post had been titled more along the lines of "First impressions - two questions" and then the first question had been addressed as "Anyone seeing more strobing on the AF100 than on the EX1? Seems like it to me, just checking others' experiences" you might have gotten a different response. So basically your first post kind of came across as "this thing is fundamentally flawed and anyone who doesn't see it is blind", which would be a pretty strong first statement from someone who admitted that they've just unboxed it, and calls into question those who have weeks or months of experience with it and who are not encountering those problems.

I and many others have shot lots of film, and shot on the AF100, and not noticed any difference in strobing. Years ago I did a side-by-side of a DVX100 and a 16mm film camera and proved that the strobing was identical. I have two new ebayed 16mm cameras sitting here right now, so maybe as part of my testing them out, I'll do a similar thing with the AF100 and 16mm/S16, which should definitively answer your question as to whether it strobes like film does.

What you didn't provide was details or context -- were you using 24PsF? Did you try your EX1 or Red in the exact same scenario at the exact same field of view? Someone else on the forum complained about strobing with a vacuum cleaner against a white wall -- he finally posted the clip, and it looks like I would expect any other 24fps camera to deliver.

As for an SDI delay, all HD-SDI has a slight delay. Just google SDI latency or SDI delay and you'll find lots of links. But you're saying that you're seeing a delay on the onboard LCD panel? Never heard of that.
 
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Barry, thank you for valuable answers and insight. I will certainly do a side-by-side comparison as soon as possible.

I actually tried to change the thread title, but could not. It may have been a bit too aggressive.

The strobing was apparent with 24psf on and off. The monitor was a Panasonic 1700. As mentioned above, 24fps and 180-degree shutter.

The SDI delay was definitely more noticable than the RED or EX1. It was not as bad as an F900 with a Miranda downconverter, but enough to be annoying....
 
maxxfish said:
Gee, thanks for your constructive input. I don't know what I was thinking, taking the time to post this silly observation since I'm such a newbie at this whole cinematography thing. I guess I'll be ordering those Filmmaking DVDs before I go out and shoot my first short.

Max Fischer
www.maxfischer.net
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The judder is a real issue with af100, only partly connected to pan speed. I noticed this on my both units but did not raise it pending more tests. I still hope it is some jinx with setups , but shutter is half. It is more pronounced on contrasty verticals as usual, but difficult to eliminate. Anybody familiar with film cameras like the OP will confirm the judder amount on AF100 is unusually present.
 
nugat said:
The judder is a real issue with af100, only partly connected to pan speed. I noticed this on my both units but did not raise it pending more tests. I still hope it is some jinx with setups , but shutter is half. It is more pronounced on contrasty verticals as usual, but difficult to eliminate. Anybody familiar with film cameras like the OP will confirm the judder amount on AF100 is unusually present.
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No it isn't.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo
 
I still believe the "strobing", which is an issue for some and not for others, does exist in cameras derived from CMOS DSLR technology. I also don't see the same effect on the 1/2" EX1R/Letus system which we shoot some commercials on. I think that comparing stobing between the DVX100 and 16mm with what Max is saying is comparing apples and oranges. There are different technologies with the CMOS cameras. Personally I see considerable spatial differences between the AF100/GH1/5D/7D footage I've seen and film cameras, specific to pans and medium subject movement within the frame. I haven't seen the F3 in action yet and am hoping it doesn't suffer the same fate. Even my Varicam doesn't doesn't have the spatial aesthetics of film. It's just different.
 
I noticed this as well and the only way I could reduce the problem was to shoot at 200iso with detail coring at -7. Higher iso's would create increase strobbing and ghosting/trailing with in my footage.
 
Barry, as this strobing or exaggerated 24p effect is an issue I'm trying to unsuccessfully resolve with my GH2,
And now realizing I'm not the only one that finds it annoying (vs Red for example which has different way of adding motion blur),
I would be glad if you could add the GH2 for you comparison on this.
Thanks.
 
nugat said:
.... Roma locuta, causa finita. Amen.
...
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Ha ha....this made my day. lol

Anyways, I too would like to see an example of what some folks are referring to as strobing. Does it have anything to do with the tearing you see happening on mid speed pans? That's something I';ve mentioned about before. I see it on ALL videos...but never on footage that originated on film. I just thought it was the norm.

Someone pointed to an article in another thread discussing electronic shutter (harsher) vs mechanical shutter (smoother) causing a different type of motion blur in video vs film. Maybe the strobing (or in what i call tearing) effect has something to do with that. (no...my monitor plays footage just fine...I watch many "film" clips that never "tear" on mid pans) But....maybe I'm talking about something totally different than the rest of you.
 
I shot film for many years before I owned a video camera, and the first 24p camera I used was the DVX - I handhold, am seldom on a tripod, and personally like a moving camera..

For some reason (I'm not a techy) the 24 on that camera looked fine, but when I got the HPX500, 24p strobed noticeably, and was commented on several times by other people. I finally ended up (at the suggestion of someone on this forum) using a 220 degree shutter setting for most of my work. There are downsides, but the strobing is pretty much gone - don't know how that relates to this camera.
 
One thing I have noticed, and it could be the monitors used, but there is more of a delay with HDMI than there with SDI. I had two monitors side by side, one SDI and one HDMI and you could see the difference. To me the SDI didn't seem much more of a lag than any other SDI camera, but the HDMI was pretty bad, at least twice as bad. I tried it on one HDMI monitor and one HDMI TV with the same results. One was this monitor and one was this TV.
 
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