7D Filming flat, and sharpening in post

Amuse-WS

Amuse-WS

Carbonite Member
So I've been filming with default settings for quite a while, and like some, would lose some detail due to the somewhat high contrast the default in-camera settings applies to capture footage.

So I tried what seems to be what a lot of 7D/5D people are doing, and using a flat picture style (I downloaded a cine-flat picture style) - but, how are you guys getting the sharpness back in post?

I use Sony Vegas, and using a "sharpening" filter adds so much noise, it's not even an option. Are you guys adjusting levels/curves to retain the sharpness from a flat recorded image?

Thanks fellas
 
I am not sure with Vegas but try to look for something similar to "Unsharp Mask", I believe that's what most ppl use on Adobe's product line.
 
Yep.

shoot with a custom curve, or superflat, or something similar. Lower your sharpness in camera to minimize aliasing and moire, then unsharp mask in post with a little bit of noise/grain. Makes quite a difference.
 
A word of caution on the "superflat" settings, I believe the one who made that has since reverted to using
NEUTRAL setting in camera, not doing a custom curve, and just moving sharpness and contrast to = 0, saturation, a notch lower from center,

(in my case I have it a notch higher, this varies to personal taste.)

I too have used the "superflat" before but found it NOT Optimum for skin tones.

Several users, me included, found the skin tones under sunny or outdoor conditions to have a "chalky" pastel appearance. It is VERY difficult to fix in post.

Please don't take this as gospel though, just cautioning you as I have since abandoned it, so do some users, including the one who made that I believe.
 
A couple things…. I like those flat gamma curves also but recently decided to not use them because they basically add noise to your footage. I think that’s the trade off for manipulating the custom color curves. So what I now do is use the “Neutral” setting in camera. When I shoot I have Highlight Priority “Off” and always try to shoot at the “cleaner” ISO’s. All of my settings are turned down to the lowest point (sharpness, saturation, contrast, color temp). What I end up with is a very clean looking image. In post I really, really like the Sony Sharpen tool within Vegas. I like it so much better than Unsharp Mask. Its sharpening edges are so much “finer” than what I can get in Unsharp Mask when fiddling with the ratio etc. I can push it real hard and still get no halos (as long as I didn’t add any sharpness while filming). Yes…pushing it can add noise…but when shot like this it’s so minimal. And the fact is…you don’t have to turn anything up. What I mean is just turn it (Sony Sharpen) on without adjusting the lever. You’ll see the difference right away.

But I think the noise you have been seeing when using this tool is the noise that was already there (in the footage) while you were filming. This means shooting the cleanest possible image will get you a lot less noise in post when using this tool. Jm2c

EDIT: Oh...and as someone suggested...add a little (very little) noise to the footage in post. This does a lot in helping problems such as macroblocking etc. You can actually look at the video wave form and see the blocking areas smoothened out. I barely use any noise when I apply it. But even the bare minimum makes a difference.
 
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In Vegas I use the NewBlue Video Effects Sharpen which to me seems to do a slightly better job than the Sony one (however the Sony one is free:( )


I also wasn't blown away by unsharp mask
 
teddybear said:
A word of caution on the "superflat" settings, I believe the one who made that has since reverted to using
NEUTRAL setting in camera, not doing a custom curve, and just moving sharpness and contrast to = 0, saturation, a notch lower from center,

(in my case I have it a notch higher, this varies to personal taste.)

I too have used the "superflat" before but found it NOT Optimum for skin tones.

Several users, me included, found the skin tones under sunny or outdoor conditions to have a "chalky" pastel appearance. It is VERY difficult to fix in post.

Please don't take this as gospel though, just cautioning you as I have since abandoned it, so do some users, including the one who made that I believe.
Click to expand...

I have to agree - it's easy to make everything else look great again, except PEOPLE. Their skin tones become too pastel'ish, regardless of how I try to color correct the video.
 
teddybear said:
A word of caution on the "superflat" settings, I believe the one who made that has since reverted to using
NEUTRAL setting in camera, not doing a custom curve, and just moving sharpness and contrast to = 0, saturation, a notch lower from center,



I too have used the "superflat" before but found it NOT Optimum for skin tones.
Click to expand...


I have been testing the T2 with a neutral setting and it looks smooth and natural even before adding chroma and contrast in post. Also is there any difference between "neutral" and "faithful" since all settings are at zero across the board?

What exactly is the setup for "superflat" and can't it just be created by adjusting the numbers as apposed to downloading a file?
 
responding to the OP:
a flat gamma curve isn't directly related to sharpness.
personally, i prefer a gamma with some contrast (see notes on skin tones above), but keep all the detail settings low (sharpness, etc).
from my experience, a 4:2:0 camera just doesn't do well with a flat gamma and i get a better image with some kind of curve. and shooting with low sharpening in-camera gets you less noise, giving you a cleaner starting point for selectively adding sharpening later.
 
Hmm, i personally love the look im getting with the superflat settings.

mind you, i made my own custom curve, and it's somewhere in between what superflat delivers and a linear standard curve. What's also great about it is that it crushes your mid-highs to bring the bright levels down a touch, which is really great for taking the video edge off of the look, giving you apparent increase in dynamic range.
 
PaPa said:
Hmm, i personally love the look im getting with the superflat settings.

mind you, i made my own custom curve, and it's somewhere in between what superflat delivers and a linear standard curve. What's also great about it is that it crushes your mid-highs to bring the bright levels down a touch, which is really great for taking the video edge off of the look, giving you apparent increase in dynamic range.
Click to expand...

What is your setting?
 
Ian,
in case you read this, you say you have saturation set to 0 as well?! How does it affect color grading in post? I'll go try it for myself later, but I'm asking because I'm never sure what "0" really means; does it mean the camera does a minimum of additional processing?
I just got a T2i, but I experienced aweful results with my Pentax K-7 when setting sharpness all the way down (-4 on Pentax), the camera clearly tried to surpress "real" sharpness and footage ended up having strange artifacts with an overall look as if the lens has been smudgy.
What are your experiences for Canon?
 
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very tricky setting saturation to 0 as the canon dslr codec doesnt offer the latitude for a clean push up in post. If this camera (7d, 5d, , t2i) were using a robust codec or in a dream scenario, using raw, id do that.
I'd prefer to get the color right in camera, not punchy, but a tad below vivid.
This things are according to taste though.
As for sharpness, 0 was ok, a 1 is also ok. Depends on your taste.

My last shoot for a resort promotion I had my saturation +1 as I wanted vivid colors.

Theres no specifics for you personal aesthetic.
 
teddybear said:
very tricky setting saturation to 0 as the canon dslr codec doesnt offer the latitude for a clean push up in post. If this camera (7d, 5d, , t2i) were using a robust codec or in a dream scenario, using raw, id do that.
I'd prefer to get the color right in camera, not punchy, but a tad below vivid.
This things are according to taste though.
As for sharpness, 0 was ok, a 1 is also ok. Depends on your taste.

My last shoot for a resort promotion I had my saturation +1 as I wanted vivid colors.

Theres no specifics for you personal aesthetic.
Click to expand...

Thanks Ted!
 
stip said:
Ian,
in case you read this, you say you have saturation set to 0 as well?! How does it affect color grading in post? I'll go try it for myself later, but I'm asking because I'm never sure what "0" really means; does it mean the camera does a minimum of additional processing?
I just got a T2i, but I experienced aweful results with my Pentax K-7 when setting sharpness all the way down (-4 on Pentax), the camera clearly tried to surpress "real" sharpness and footage ended up having strange artifacts with an overall look as if the lens has been smudgy.
What are your experiences for Canon?
Click to expand...
Stip, I've really only recently started using these settings. I'm used to having sharpness at +1 and saturation at "0" (or the center spot on the scale). But when I said "0" for saturation above I really did mean "-4." The reason is I made certain presets in Vegas for post work to go with these settings. But honestly the colors from the cam looks great set at a neutral level "dead center." What I am trying to avoid when setting to -4 is that "color noise" y0u sometimes see in dark areas (whether or not the footage looks clean). I think -4 helps.

Also, in terms of sharpening, I like to add sharpening in post...but when setting to +1 in camera (like I have been doing) sometimes I get that artificial line around people's face, clothing etc that screams video. It's not terrible...but I'm trying to go for a more naturally sharp looking image. Shooting with it at 0 might come out looking soft but using the Sony Shrpen in post brings it back to life (IMO). Unsharp Mask is out of the question for me. The codec isn't the greatest....but it's not that bad either.

Oh...and I try to shoot to the right as much as possible....not underexposing. I keep it at 320 ISO and if I have to 640 ISO. Those ISOs are clean. If I have to add light then I do.
 
Thanks Ian!

Ian-T said:
...but I'm trying to go for a more naturally sharp looking image.
Click to expand...

That's definately something I care about too. I use to sharpen in AE with a custom highpass filter as I hate the halo the unsharp mask creates, but I'm not too satisfied with that as well. I never thought about using the sharpener in Vegas but I'll definately give it a try as you sound pretty happy with it.
 
teddybear said:
very tricky setting saturation to 0 as the canon dslr codec doesnt offer the latitude for a clean push up in post. If this camera (7d, 5d, , t2i) were using a robust codec or in a dream scenario, using raw, id do that.
I'd prefer to get the color right in camera, not punchy, but a tad below vivid.
This things are according to taste though.
As for sharpness, 0 was ok, a 1 is also ok. Depends on your taste.

My last shoot for a resort promotion I had my saturation +1 as I wanted vivid colors.

Theres no specifics for you personal aesthetic.
Click to expand...




That resort? http://exposureroom.com/members/tedramasola/1748a10dcb7a4c09a5797bd48cfa3888/ Sick stuff... You shoot with a 7D? Philip Bloom is overrated ;) You are a true pro, now get yourself a real domain name and a slick website! ;)

Now, don't say if it's a secret but how much do you charge a resort for an promo like that? Got to be over $10k ...?
 
Breezer said:
That resort? http://exposureroom.com/members/tedramasola/1748a10dcb7a4c09a5797bd48cfa3888/ Sick stuff... You shoot with a 7D? Philip Bloom is overrated ;) You are a true pro, now get yourself a real domain name and a slick website! ;)

Now, don't say if it's a secret but how much do you charge a resort for an promo like that? Got to be over $10k ...?
Click to expand...

Thanks for the kind words breezer. Yeah, I shot with the 7d for that commercial. You can see it in this BTS; [size=+2]PINR commercial BTS[/size]
 
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