C200: Feature with 3 cameras - considering the C200

Y

yoclay

Veteran
So I have a feature I am going to shoot with 3 cameras and I am considering the C200.
It's a story that mostly takes place in a single room (studio situation even so) - with ten characters ! I need to shoot with multiple cams because the continuity will be too hard to reproduce otherwise - too many variables with so many bodies.
Some of the reasons I am considering the C200 is because it is small, the results of RAW look quite pleasing to me and I can do quick push-ins and push-outs with the focus tracking when the character is centered in the frame. I also like the idea of dividing up my cameras by short, medium and long focal length zooms. Canon 16-35 III, 24-70 II and 70-200 II. I also can therefore do matching reverses at 35 and 70mm focal lengths.

One of my questions is how usable is the DPAF on these lenses and in this situation apart from the simple push-ins/outs ? I have no illusions that face recognition is probably going out the window with so many actors in the scenes, but some idea of its usability from some current users would be great, especially with these zooms...

Other points of views with regards to the strengths and weaknesses of the C200 with this project as I have described it would also be appreciated...
If it is too much hassle I will just shoot it with bigger more classical setups in PL, etc. but I would like to have a little more of the maneuverability offered by these small cameras. Especially in such a confined setting with so many characters.

Cheers,
Clayton
 
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Hey Clayton:

I was one of the first group to receive their C200s from the B&H pre-orders and I have already shot several projects with it for broadcast and the web. Here are some comments to your questions...

Not quite sure what you mean by "quick push-ins and push-outs"? Do you mean actual optical zooms with still lenses or do you mean shooting 4K RAW and pushing in and magnifying in post or shooting 4K RAW and finishing in 1080 and pushing-in or ?

Your lens choices are good, those are all wonderful looking lenses although you are giving up hard stops, longer focus throw for manual focus with ACs, etc. over PL, which I am sure you know.

DPAF is pretty solid on the C200, although not perfect. It does occasioanlly not register a certain face at a certain angle, and it likes contrast and proper exposure to function correctly. I did a presentation for the Los Angeles MS Society with four talent in a wide and the face recognition put a box around each of the four faces and I was able to use the joystick to tell the camera which face to focus on. Not sure, but I think the limit is ten faces, I thought I read that somewhere but I could be wrong. I also shot groups of dancers on a white on white background/set following them on a Dana Dolly and once again, DPAF and face recognition worked amazingly well as long as it would lock on a dancer. This was even with a slow lens, the 18-135 STM IS but I had a ton of great lighting and a white on white set so there were no exposure issues and I easily pulled a 5.6 at ISO 800. I was impressed at how well the face recognition tracked the dancers, even during the more frantic hip-hop and J-Setting sequences. Fast moving dancers and the box followed them amazingly well. I did somethimes revert to just regular DPAF and a few times even used object tracking. Overall, a real AC would not have been able to nail the focus riding that the DPAF did for this project, I was impressed.

A downside will be media management. If you are shooting short takes and have a data wrangler and or DIT, you're fine but if you are doing long takes (the piece above that I describe were dance instructional tutorials for a YouTube RED series) and we shot a LOT of footage with two cameras and trying to DP and media manage sucked. The CRL is huge and takes up a lot of room and takes a while to transfer to the drives. Also, with three cameras, sync would be easier with the C300 MKII with timecode i/o. The C200 has no t/c i/o and no genlock. Not that big of a deal with a smart slate, that's what we used but without a smart slate, more of a PITA to sync in post.

Overall, the C200 sounds workable for what you are trying to do but you could just as easily use three C300 MKIIs as well and portions would be easier. Converting the CRL to ProRes is a PITA and time consuming while the C300 MKIIs XF-AVC is ready to edit and less than half the file size. DPAF and face recognition is the same between the C200 and C300 MKII. I own the C200 and am happy with it overall but I would have bought a C300 MKII over it except for the clamshell monitor and dual A/V lame cables. But the XF-AVC codec is more practical for a lot of shoots. C200 is physically smaller and lighter though than the C300 MKII. Either will work, just depends on your priorities.
 
With the caveat that I haven't used the C200 yet:
I've had my C300mk2 for over two years now and I use the Autofocus all the time. For narrative I would still choose manual focus.

The biggest limitation of the autofocus system on the C300mk2 is the user interface. Which is very first generation. I'm sure that's improved a lot in the C200! The second biggest limitation is that it has a hard time when there's little contrast, in low light and people with glasses are not always recognized as people. Some faces recognize really well, while other faces barely recognizes at all. When it's optimal the autofocus on the C300mk2 can pull sharper focus than the best 1st AC in Hollywood! But while more in focus, the pulls still feel like a machine pull. Real good focus pulling is an art form, and Canon is nowhere close to replicating that!
 
It definitely helps to set the focus pull settings to the slowest to get a more gradual human-like focus pull (if that makes sense)
 
Clayton,
Frankly speaking if I were you, I would have taken the C200 route.

Reasons:
1) Smaller than C300 II.
2) Cheaper than C300 II
3) And Most important than the first two reasons is that C200 has RAWlite. The Raw files are more detailed than the C300II.
With indie films one tries to impress with the quality of the production. Yes I know that the quality of production includes lighting, art design etc apart from ability of talents and their brand pull and post production, however, I find the quality of the files also makes a lot of difference.

Though the following link is about a documentary and not a narrative, one can see that the quality of files helped. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3rJiDN7cao

https://www.cinema5d.com/sea-gypsie...-shot-on-the-canon-5d3-and-magic-lantern-raw/

I agree with your lens choices. A 100mm macro doesn't cost much. At times, you can creatively use the macro for a few shots to heighten the drama, is the script can permit.

Junk the 1st AC. If you by chance miss a shot, work on the contrast and retake. Market your film as completely shot with DPAF. :)
 
indiawilds said:
3) And Most important than the first two reasons is that C200 has RAWlite. The Raw files are more detailed than the C300II.
Click to expand...

The C300 MKII has full raw (not "lite"). Though you'd also have to hire/buy 3 recorders :-P

As an aside I'm assuming the C200 raw is better (not baked in iso/wb, 12 bit) though at a much lower bitrate?
 
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Thanks for the input guys. Such in depth responses. Really greatly appreciated. It's always good to get feedback from people who are working with the equipment to understand where the choices are.

I may speak with Canon about some kind of sponsorship deal as well.

I am indeed willing to put aside my Cooke and Zeiss lenses in order to gain in other areas, most particluarly in terms of speed, flexibility and a small footprint. Wondering if I can really go without 1ac's however. Seems like mixed opinions on that. Concerned about the tracking losing the subject if other faces are in the frame, crossing or doing a wipe.

By the way, in terms of "push ins/outs", I was referring to small dolly or slider movements towards or away from a character to underline their dialogue or psychological state. These are the kinds of things that can eat up a lot of time with a first AC, and DPAF can really be a great help.

It's true media management is a concern. With 3 cameras we are talking at least 9-12 CFast cards and non stop cycling through them. Though if I can least shoot MP4 proxy's at the same time maybe it can work more efficiently for the edit without having to transcode. Anyone know if the file naming is the same between the two ? By the way RAW lite does look better to me than the RAW coming off the C300II/recorder solution. Not sure why that is, but looks a little cleaner and snappier.

In terms of timecode, it appears that I would have to use a third party solution like Tentacle Sync I guess. Correct ?

Also anyone had experience running the C200 off to a video village yet ? Wondering if the Wifi solution for 3 cameras is doable or if the lag is too great to really see what is going on in real time between all of them...
 
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Got it on the push ins and push outs. DPAF can really help with those kinds of moves.

With the C200, the 2K .MP4s do NOT have the same file naming structure. There is a hacked way to use Adobe Bridge (You can search or hit up Eric Coughlin - he described how he does it in another thread) to append the names and make them match closer but your MP4 files will always end with ".MP4" and your CRL files will always end with ".CRM" and the general file naming structure, from the camera, is totally different.

As far as media management, a 256GB CFast card gives you 34 minutes of CRL on the C200 but gives you 84 minutes of 410 Mbps 4K XF-AVC on the C300 MKII. Something to think about. Also, as you are shooting, keep in mind that CFast cards need a fast pipeline all of the way through. You can have your CFast reader hooked up to your computer via Thunderbolt or USB 3.0, both of which are fast, but if the receiving end is a $99.00 single drive USB My Passport, you are going to take forever to download each card and will get backed up with three cameras without multiple computers and drives, trust me. You really need to use a USB 3.0 card reader to a Thunderboth SSD RAID, that's the only type setup where you can dump those 256 GB Cfast cards in 15 minutes. The whole pipeline needs to be fast, not just the card reader. I've done both and the time difference is amazingly different. I can dump a 256GB card of CRL to my laptop's internal SSD in 10 minutes, whereas to do the same with a $99.00 Frys My Passport drive via USB 3.0 can easily take 45 minutes. Multiply that times three and you are at a huge bottleneck.

I have not used or tried the TentacleSync but in theory, it should work through the 3.5mm Ch 3/4 input on the C200, but not sure which edit programs support TC from audio tracks? I have never tried that although I think it's possible?

There is a delay and the signal you're seeing is only 12-15 fps so it looks strobed. Not good for making crucial timing decisions, too much delay. If it's actors acting and emoting, should be okay but a lot of physical action and maybe not? Will the director be calling the shots on each camera op via headphones or will scenes be "passively" directed where the director has just assigned framing and direction to each of the three camera ops?
 
Definitely get ahold of C200 and test out before embarking on this! I speak from experience when I say there are so many variables (foreground objects, low light, af capabilities of each lens) that could trip up the autofocus... but also situations when it works flawlessly.

The question is, do you want to be redoing takes with a full cast just because the autofocus got confused at some point?

Also, imagine if you wanted to pull focus from a character to an object in the background that's relevant to the story.. the speed and timing of that focus pull could be crucial.. and then if it hunts, the take is ruined.

I would really try to work on a solution by blocking the scenes out thoroughly an then getting coverage that will allow you to workout tricky continuity issues in the edit.

Either way, I wish you luck - godspeed.
 
The lack of timecode on the C200 is worth considering (lack of genlock is also a bummer, but not as much since I'm guessing you'll mostly be shooting standard narrative-length takes; not rolling for a couple hours like at a concert of sports event). With three cameras (plus audio, right?) I might look at something beyond Tentacle Sync units. Nothing against them, but you to make sure post can get rolling and find takes in a hurry, maybe add a good timecode slate, a good sound mixer who's given the time (i.e.- given a boom op and perhaps a utility) to write good sound reports, or even a scripty so post will be able to get rolling with good data.

I mean, you'll have three cameras, a boom mic or two (presumably), and perhaps a few channels of radio mics. So like four to 15 chunks of media for every take?

Maybe even consider an "integrated" system such as the stuff from one of these two companies (and their partners):

https://www.timecodesystems.com

http://ambient.de/en/product_custom_cat/Timecode-en/

A good location mixer will, after a chat with your post supe or editor, be able to set you up and keep things in order, I'd think.
 
puredrifting said:
Got it on the push ins and push outs. DPAF can really help with those kinds of moves.

With the C200, the 2K .MP4s do NOT have the same file naming structure. There is a hacked way to use Adobe Bridge (You can search or hit up Eric Coughlin - he described how he does it in another thread) to append the names and make them match closer but your MP4 files will always end with ".MP4" and your CRL files will always end with ".CRM" and the general file naming structure, from the camera, is totally different.

As far as media management, a 256GB CFast card gives you 34 minutes of CRL on the C200 but gives you 84 minutes of 410 Mbps 4K XF-AVC on the C300 MKII. Something to think about. Also, as you are shooting, keep in mind that CFast cards need a fast pipeline all of the way through. You can have your CFast reader hooked up to your computer via Thunderbolt or USB 3.0, both of which are fast, but if the receiving end is a $99.00 single drive USB My Passport, you are going to take forever to download each card and will get backed up with three cameras without multiple computers and drives, trust me. You really need to use a USB 3.0 card reader to a Thunderboth SSD RAID, that's the only type setup where you can dump those 256 GB Cfast cards in 15 minutes. The whole pipeline needs to be fast, not just the card reader. I've done both and the time difference is amazingly different. I can dump a 256GB card of CRL to my laptop's internal SSD in 10 minutes, whereas to do the same with a $99.00 Frys My Passport drive via USB 3.0 can easily take 45 minutes. Multiply that times three and you are at a huge bottleneck.

I have not used or tried the TentacleSync but in theory, it should work through the 3.5mm Ch 3/4 input on the C200, but not sure which edit programs support TC from audio tracks? I have never tried that although I think it's possible?

There is a delay and the signal you're seeing is only 12-15 fps so it looks strobed. Not good for making crucial timing decisions, too much delay. If it's actors acting and emoting, should be okay but a lot of physical action and maybe not? Will the director be calling the shots on each camera op via headphones or will scenes be "passively" directed where the director has just assigned framing and direction to each of the three camera ops?
Click to expand...

Thanks for explaining exactly where the potential bottlenecks are in terms of card offloading. Very clear.

The Tentacle Sync has a program which pairs everything up automatically and exports to the NLE of one's choice. Kind of like an advanced pluraleyes.

From what you are describing, I would likely have to tether the cameras for the Video Village or invest in Teradeks, which all becomes part of the Xmas tree effect that I would like to try to avoid in using these cameras.

I am the director and the DoP on this project by the way. So I will probably be calling the shots, but I prefer to give the camera operators the liberty to move with the action in ways that are intuitive to them. Just as I would never tell an actor what he or she is supposed to feel, I would never tell an operator exactly what the frame is. I would rather give them the motivation and the elements that are important to me and let their creativity come out. Not many folks work this way, but I have found that this is how I like to work when I am operating myself and I find it builds trust. I am rarely disappointed when I begin working closely with people. My confidence in them, helps them to have confidence in what they are doing and we often go beyond what any of our expectations are if we communicate well.
 
Jim Feeley said:
The lack of timecode on the C200 is worth considering (lack of genlock is also a bummer, but not as much since I'm guessing you'll mostly be shooting standard narrative-length takes; not rolling for a couple hours like at a concert of sports event). With three cameras (plus audio, right?) I might look at something beyond Tentacle Sync units. Nothing against them, but you to make sure post can get rolling and find takes in a hurry, maybe add a good timecode slate, a good sound mixer who's given the time (i.e.- given a boom op and perhaps a utility) to write good sound reports, or even a scripty so post will be able to get rolling with good data.

I mean, you'll have three cameras, a boom mic or two (presumably), and perhaps a few channels of radio mics. So like four to 15 chunks of media for every take?

Maybe even consider an "integrated" system such as the stuff from one of these two companies (and their partners):

https://www.timecodesystems.com

http://ambient.de/en/product_custom_cat/Timecode-en/

A good location mixer will, after a chat with your post supe or editor, be able to set you up and keep things in order, I'd think.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the input. I always work with a timecode slate, usually link to a master camera or the mixer and then use tentacles or lockits etc. on everything. What I like is that we can have everything from DSLRS, iphones, to Alexa's all on the same timecode this way.

Continuity is primordial as well. A script is a given. Way so many variables with ten actors and so much gear on the fly (we are creating sound zones, rather than booming) with hung microphones we would never survive without one, maybe even two.
 
All sounds good. Just in case I wasn't clear, by "scripty" I mean a script supervisor. Even with Tentacles, Lockits, TC slate, and whatever, really good notes are going to be super important for post. As it seems you know. I just recall being on a multi-cam semi-improved film with good TC, etc but without great notes (since the small crew was so busy). I wasn't on set, and we spent a lot of time in post figuring out what was what.

Have fun! Post pictures of the shoo!
 
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