F5: F5 successor revealing (really a F65 successor)

Donny 123 said:
Eh? Fs7 and F3.. were we not talking about the F65.. and Alexa..? you think they have the same sensor as the F65.. sorry we are going down the rabbit hole now..

I have no idea of film that has definitely decided to mimic an Arri Alexa look.. what ever that might mean.. but I gave examples of two films that look very good.. all I stated was the fact that with a 16 bit Raw recording.. esp off the F65 sensor.. its a logical fact that a competent grader at the feature film level given the billions of shades available .. could either mimic an Arri but more specifically make any image they want.. there would be no Sony look or cleanest.. but comparing Arri Alexa to a Fs7 or F3 is totally another ball game.. surely you didnt expect your images to look like a feature film shot on Arri Raw.. or even prores for that matter..
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I was talking about me moving away from the Sony game in general. I got convinced a while ago that this was the right move given I was tired of fighting the image.

But you can ridicule the FS7 comparison to the Arris all you want. The FS7 having the same sensor as the F5 looks very close to the F55. You get F5 owners swearing there is no difference in the F5 and F55 images apart from the shutter. And the F5 with the same sensor as the FS7 has been used and intercut with the F55 without problems and and the F55 with the F65. The truth is the images among the FS7, F5, F55 and F65 are very similar aesthetically. The F65 is sharper and has more color. But the looks is obviously not as different among the Sonys as is between the Sonys and the Arris. So comparing the FS7 image to the F55 is fair game. I have used both and they are very similar indeed. It's obvious they are cut from the same block of wood. Now if you are saying comparing the F55 with the Alexa is not fair, then you are actually agreeing with my point.

It's not about looking good. It's about not looking too digital IMO.

Yes, it's a logical fact that a competent grader at the feature film level given the billions of shades available .. could either mimic an Arri but more specifically make any image they want... So they don't mimic Arri because they don't want all those best cinematography Oscar nominations, right? I know that cameras don't win Oscars but the top DPs who do choose Arri for a reason. And it's not because of the name only or because of workflow. It's also because the images are better or at least easier to get better images. I know it is. With the Arris you don't need to fight the image. I know that from self experience.

I got sick of fighting the image and sold my FS7 while it is still worth good money and also sold my F3. Then I bought an used FS700 for peanuts to do all the low ball work I was comfortable doing with the FS7 without renting an Arri or F55. And all the jobs that would hire me with the FS7. Then I bought an used Alexa Classic and couldn't be happier. No more fighting the image. And you know how many of my clients complained the Arri is not 4K and demanded the FS7 back? Exactly none! Actually I got more comments like, oh you have an Arri now. Nice. Just a side effect as I didn't buy it because of the name. I bought it because of the image.

And when I sold the FS7 and F3 I still gave Sony some thought. I had used the F55 several times before. So I already knew it was a no go. Same fighting the image. But I had not tried the F65, so I rented one. I actually had to get it from out of town. But at the time there were some crazy deals going on for used F65s. So I wanted to try it. But I found it much like the F55 honestly. So I finally gave in and went with Arri. Life is too short to live in denial and Alexa Classic prices are affordable enough now. Although this year I will most likely buy an Alexa Mini. Not sure I will sell the Alexa Classic though. We will see.

So dismiss my point all you want because I was comparing a FS7 to an Arri. I wasn't. I was comparing the current Sony image to the Arri. Besides it was the same case with the F55 and F65 compared to the Arri. They are actually very close to the FS7 in more ways than not. Which is what makes the FS7 a crazy deal, if you like its look. I got tired of it not being what I wanted and needed. With the Arri I'm getting much better images working with the same budgets, same lights, same lenses. Heck, I'm the same guy doing the same thing I did with the FS7 but with the Arri it makes my work shine.

The very same type of work I do looks better on the Arri than it did with the FS7 or with the F55 which I used a lot alongside my FS7. And I'm not even shooting Arri RAW. Prores. But I did try shooting RAW with the Sonys to see if that was the problem. It wasn't.

For the record, for me I think I would have been just as happy with a F35. I tried some ungraded images posted online and it's much like the Arris. A few tweaks and the image is gold. But I need a commercial camera. I need something currently popular. But I still want to get a F35 one day.

But Rafael is right. Let's get back on topic. All I said is that I hope Sony is going back to that F35 aesthetics with this new sensor. Or at least something that puts out images easier to make look nice.
 
Donny 123 said:
Eh? Fs7 and F3.. were we not talking about the F65.. and Alexa..? you think they have the same sensor as the F65.. sorry we are going down the rabbit hole now..

I have no idea of film that has definitely decided to mimic an Arri Alexa look.. what ever that might mean.. but I gave examples of two films that look very good.. all I stated was the fact that with a 16 bit Raw recording.. esp off the F65 sensor.. its a logical fact that a competent grader at the feature film level given the billions of shades available .. could either mimic an Arri but more specifically make any image they want.. there would be no Sony look or cleanest.. but comparing Arri Alexa to a Fs7 or F3 is totally another ball game.. surely you didnt expect your images to look like a feature film shot on Arri Raw.. or even prores for that matter..
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Yes, you can match grade different cameras, but it can be a lot of work.

You can't match grade the highlight roll off and overexposure characteristics of the Alexa.

The Alexa produces a very pleasing organic image with little or no grading. Arri basically took what they learned from the Arri film scanner and recorder and implemented that in the Alexa, which essentially is a digital incarnation of Kodak Vision3.

Sony cameras produce very pleasing images, but in my experience need more work in the DI. Personally I have never been able to fully remove the broadcast look from my F3 footage.

I don't think the Sony look is bad. That's too strong a word and not really appropriate. I see it as having the choice between different film stocks. Do you want Fuji or Kodak?

I work in VFX and saw and handled some of the actual footage on Oblivion and it looked freaking amazing.

I would choose Sony over RED, because I have never liked the skin tones and ironically the reds out of those cameras. The new Light Iron / RED color science looks really promising, but we'll have to see where that lands.

Now that I have a working post pipeline in ACES with some custom tweaks I actually really like what I am getting out of my F3. My only problem is that it is HD, which is fine for a lot of things, but not DCP2k without a blowup.

Again, if Sony can simply step away from a lot of their broadcast color science and steer towards a film based approach they could produce a killer camera. I can't image that they have not gotten massive amount of feedback in the past few years. One would hope that they see this new camera as a clean slate to break from the past.
 
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Harry Lime said:
Yes, you can match grade different cameras, but it can be a lot of work.

You can't match grade the highlight roll off and overexposure characteristics of the Alexa.

The Alexa produces a very pleasing organic image with little or no grading. Arri basically took what they learned from the Arri film scanner and recorder and implemented that in the Alexa, which essentially is a digital incarnation of Kodak Vision3.

Sony cameras produce very pleasing images, but in my experience need more work in the DI. Personally I have never been able to fully remove the broadcast look from my F3 footage.

I don't think the Sony look is bad. That's too strong a word and not really appropriate. I see it as having the choice between different film stocks. Do you want Fuji or Kodak?

I work in VFX and saw and handled some of the actual footage on Oblivion and it looked freaking amazing.

I would choose Sony over RED, because I have never liked the skin tones and ironically the reds out of those cameras. The new Light Iron / RED color science looks really promising, but we'll have to see where that lands.

Now that I have a working post pipeline in ACES with some custom tweaks I actually really like what I am getting out of my F3. My only problem is that it is HD, which is fine for a lot of things, but not DCP2k without a blowup.

Again, if Sony can simply step away from a lot of their broadcast color science and steer towards a film based approach they could produce a killer camera. I can't image that they have not gotten massive amount of feedback in the past few years. One would hope that they see this new camera as a clean slate to break from the past.
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Yes totally agree. Specially with the part of one not being able to match grade the highlight roll off and overexposure characteristics of the Alexa.

And I agree again that Sony should step away from their broadcast color science and steer towards a film based approach. This is basically what they did with the F35, which besides great color science and aesthetics also has lovely highlight roll off and overexposure characteristics like the Alexa. This is all I'm saying. Sony please get back into your film mojo.
 
I agree but the market is just too small. Film industry is dominated by ARRI, it's going to stay that way for a long time too I suspect. Sadly.
 
starcentral said:
I agree but the market is just too small. Film industry is dominated by ARRI, it's going to stay that way for a long time too I suspect. Sadly.
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But then what's the point of doing a VV camera if not for film? For broadcast they already have the excellent F55. So small market or not VV tells me they are going after the film market. If so they absolutely need to leave their broadcast roots behind and pull a F35 again.
 
Sttratos said:
But then what's the point of doing a VV camera if not for film? For broadcast they already have the excellent F55. So small market or not VV tells me they are going after the film market. If so they absolutely need to leave their broadcast roots behind and pull a F35 again.
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Agreed. Let's hope they don't have their wires cross this time.
 
Sttratos said:
Yes totally agree. Specially with the part of one not being able to match grade the highlight roll off and overexposure characteristics of the Alexa.

And I agree again that Sony should step away from their broadcast color science and steer towards a film based approach. This is basically what they did with the F35, which besides great color science and aesthetics also has lovely highlight roll off and overexposure characteristics like the Alexa. This is all I'm saying. Sony please get back into your film mojo.
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+1
 
starcentral said:
I agree but the market is just too small. Film industry is dominated by ARRI, it's going to stay that way for a long time too I suspect. Sadly.
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It's a small industry, but Sony cameras do tend to be cheaper than the offerings from Arri. If Sony could build a camera with a more film like image and better ergonomics it would not go unnoticed. I think people trust Sony. Their build quality, reliability, sensor technology etc are second to none. It's the damn color science that they need to change.
 
I think now that sony has added raw (via R7) to their CineAlta camera system they will adapt the mentality of "getting your look in post" but as pointed out by yourself and others, there are some aspects that you just can't do in post period, and other aspects that just take a lot of work.

I'm very curious and wonder if they will do what was don't on the A7rII and make it switchable between FF and super35mm - with a 8-12K native sensor ideally they'll be able to do whatever they want.
 
But - isn't there another camera in the F5 class with the (passed down) F65 sensor?

The full frame is probably going to be 8K, Alexa65 competitor. There's plenty of room in the $30,000 weight class.
 
DLD said:
But - isn't there another camera in the F5 class with the (passed down) F65 sensor?

The full frame is probably going to be 8K, Alexa65 competitor. There's plenty of room in the $30,000 weight class.
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Thats what Im saying.. hopefully there is more than just one new camera.. not sure if Sony have clarified that or not.. but then again they have said it wont replace the current F5/55/65.. so a cheaper version of the F8/9?.. would be in direct competition with the F55.. I wish they would can/phase out the f5/55 and give us a new camera in that price range too.. keep it SxS.. (still the most robust card around).. variable ND.. over sample sensor.. $25-30K.. then you have ..Fs5 low end..Fs7 mid F8 as above.. mid /top end more TV type work maybe.. .. F9 ..F65 replacement .. high end ..features ..
 
Sttratos said:
I was talking about me moving away from the Sony game in general. I got convinced a while ago that this was the right move given I was tired of fighting the image.

But you can ridicule the FS7 comparison to the Arris all you want. The FS7 having the same sensor as the F5 looks very close to the F55. You get F5 owners swearing there is no difference in the F5 and F55 images apart from the shutter. And the F5 with the same sensor as the FS7 has been used and intercut with the F55 without problems and and the F55 with the F65. The truth is the images among the FS7, F5, F55 and F65 are very similar aesthetically. The F65 is sharper and has more color. But the looks is obviously not as different among the Sonys as is between the Sonys and the Arris. So comparing the FS7 image to the F55 is fair game. I have used both and they are very similar indeed. It's obvious they are cut from the same block of wood. Now if you are saying comparing the F55 with the Alexa is not fair, then you are actually agreeing with my point.

It's not about looking good. It's about not looking too digital IMO.

Yes, it's a logical fact that a competent grader at the feature film level given the billions of shades available .. could either mimic an Arri but more specifically make any image they want... So they don't mimic Arri because they don't want all those best cinematography Oscar nominations, right? I know that cameras don't win Oscars but the top DPs who do choose Arri for a reason. And it's not because of the name only or because of workflow. It's also because the images are better or at least easier to get better images. I know it is. With the Arris you don't need to fight the image. I know that from self experience.

I got sick of fighting the image and sold my FS7 while it is still worth good money and also sold my F3. Then I bought an used FS700 for peanuts to do all the low ball work I was comfortable doing with the FS7 without renting an Arri or F55. And all the jobs that would hire me with the FS7. Then I bought an used Alexa Classic and couldn't be happier. No more fighting the image. And you know how many of my clients complained the Arri is not 4K and demanded the FS7 back? Exactly none! Actually I got more comments like, oh you have an Arri now. Nice. Just a side effect as I didn't buy it because of the name. I bought it because of the image.

And when I sold the FS7 and F3 I still gave Sony some thought. I had used the F55 several times before. So I already knew it was a no go. Same fighting the image. But I had not tried the F65, so I rented one. I actually had to get it from out of town. But at the time there were some crazy deals going on for used F65s. So I wanted to try it. But I found it much like the F55 honestly. So I finally gave in and went with Arri. Life is too short to live in denial and Alexa Classic prices are affordable enough now. Although this year I will most likely buy an Alexa Mini. Not sure I will sell the Alexa Classic though. We will see.

So dismiss my point all you want because I was comparing a FS7 to an Arri. I wasn't. I was comparing the current Sony image to the Arri. Besides it was the same case with the F55 and F65 compared to the Arri. They are actually very close to the FS7 in more ways than not. Which is what makes the FS7 a crazy deal, if you like its look. I got tired of it not being what I wanted and needed. With the Arri I'm getting much better images working with the same budgets, same lights, same lenses. Heck, I'm the same guy doing the same thing I did with the FS7 but with the Arri it makes my work shine.

The very same type of work I do looks better on the Arri than it did with the FS7 or with the F55 which I used a lot alongside my FS7. And I'm not even shooting Arri RAW. Prores. But I did try shooting RAW with the Sonys to see if that was the problem. It wasn't.

For the record, for me I think I would have been just as happy with a F35. I tried some ungraded images posted online and it's much like the Arris. A few tweaks and the image is gold. But I need a commercial camera. I need something currently popular. But I still want to get a F35 one day.

But Rafael is right. Let's get back on topic. All I said is that I hope Sony is going back to that F35 aesthetics with this new sensor. Or at least something that puts out images easier to make look nice.
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Sure use what ever camera you want.. I thought your original point was that the F65 looked "too clean" and had a Sony look.. is that not right.. if its just that you prefer another camera then sure .. who would argue with that.. but I would say there is a very big difference between the sensor and processing of the F3 HD 35Mbps and the F65 .. this is Kobe beef to a week old cheese burger...
 
Sony just released a couple of SSD's made "especially for video" but, for 8K Raw, they'll probably have to use something based on the 3DNand or 3D XPoint technology.
 
Harry Lime said:
It's a small industry, but Sony cameras do tend to be cheaper than the offerings from Arri. If Sony could build a camera with a more film like image and better ergonomics it would not go unnoticed. I think people trust Sony. Their build quality, reliability, sensor technology etc are second to none. It's the damn color science that they need to change.
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When it comes to ergonomics I don't think Sony has a real problem. I mean the F5 and F55 have pretty good ergonomics. Don't you think? Honestly better than the Alexa IMO. The Amira is better. But not the Alexa. I think the weak link is the image. I would be extremely happy with the same body as the F55 just with a better sensor.
 
Donny 123 said:
Sure use what ever camera you want.. I thought your original point was that the F65 looked "too clean" and had a Sony look.. is that not right.. if its just that you prefer another camera then sure .. who would argue with that.. but I would say there is a very big difference between the sensor and processing of the F3 HD 35Mbps and the F65 .. this is Kobe beef to a week old cheese burger...
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Well, yes. My problem is that the FS7, F5, F55 and F65 look too digital. I already said I don't think the F65 has the Sony look, which to me is the old broadcast look. But they all look too digital to me and no amount of grading changed that.

And I thought it was clear that I never compared the F3 with the F65 or Arris. I just mentioned I sold it together with my FS7, as in I sold all my Sony cameras. Never compared it to the F65 or Arris.
 
Sttratos said:
Well, yes. My problem is that the FS7, F5, F55 and F65 look too digital. I already said I don't think the F65 has the Sony look, which to me is the old broadcast look. But they all look too digital to me and no amount of grading changed that.

And I thought it was clear that I never compared the F3 with the F65 or Arris. I just mentioned I sold it together with my FS7, as in I sold all my Sony cameras. Never compared it to the F65 or Arris.
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Ok well Im totally confused now.. may your god go with you sir..
 
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