F5: F5 gets the boot from NetFlix… or do they?

DLD said:
That's not the point. They're advertising the 4K content and Alexa ain't 4K.

They also don't have GH4, RX10II/III, RX 100 IV/V, Nikon D500, 1DC, D5, 1D XII, 5D MKIV on that list. All of them are 4K but fail in other areas.
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Are you seriously going to pitch that a BM Mini 4.6k that aliases, has FPN and magenta vignetting delivers better IQ than an Alexa because it has a few more pixels? Given the list of cameras it seems like 4k+ was the main requirement to be met.

Yes, I get it. The Alexa is not 4k native and they are advertising 4k content, but resolution is not the sole determining factor for high IQ. If anything it's maybe 3rd or 4th on the list.
 
thats the insanity of it all. between tech spec Nazis and the producer crowd that can only shoot on the latest hottest camera available it is very tricky investing in that top camera.

Harry Lime said:
Are you seriously going to pitch that a BM Mini 4.6k that aliases, has FPN and magenta vignetting delivers better IQ than an Alexa because it has a few more pixels? Given the list of cameras it seems like 4k+ was the main requirement to be met.

Yes, I get it. The Alexa is not 4k native and they are advertising 4k content, but resolution is not the sole determining factor for high IQ. If anything it's maybe 3rd or 4th on the list.
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Harry Lime said:
Are you seriously going to pitch that a BM Mini 4.6k that aliases, has FPN and magenta vignetting delivers better IQ than an Alexa because it has a few more pixels? Given the list of cameras it seems like 4k+ was the main requirement to be met.

Yes, I get it. The Alexa is not 4k native and they are advertising 4k content, but resolution is not the sole determining factor for high IQ. If anything it's maybe 3rd or 4th on the list.
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Resolution is what separates them from the OTA's, that shoot in either 080p or 2880P oversampled down to 1080p. So, with the 4K becoming the dominant format at home, this gives the Netflix originals a major leg up on the OTA programming. In 2020, when every middle class family can get 4k streamed at home, bring 1080P might as well be labeled B&W.

As to URSA 4.6, they're allowing Raw only, where - one has to assume - the issues you are concerned about can be eliminated or, at worst, mitigated. URSA ProRes footage is deemed to be of an insufficient quality.

icarusfilm said:
It is relevant because people who invest in a top of the line camera want to assume that it will cover them for all "high end " jobs in a foreseeable future.

I know a DP who owns an Amira and got a a deal to DP a Netflix series and now has to get a c300II to shoot it. What I am saying is that its tricky on the high-end.
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But why should that concern Netflix? It's a huge global market. You want ARRI, you can shoot with ARRI. They don't want ARRI, aside of Alexa65, and that's how things stand.
 
icarusfilm said:
It is relevant because people who invest in a top of the line camera want to assume that it will cover them for all "high end " jobs in a foreseeable future.
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If you buy a super expensive camera today that you know already have outdated specs you better not assume anything and be pretty sure you have work already lined up to justify the expense...
 
Crap is crap, even more in '4k'.

Netflix think that if they put higher technical specs requirements then their competition, it will automatically lead their audience to think that they have higher quality content.

It doesn't have anything to do with technology, it's pure marketing. They sell resolution (objective constant), it's easier then quality programing (subjective variable).

Form without substance will collapse when they run out of marketing tricks.
 
I guess it does indeed happen today, but I still find it crazy that any DP would have to personally purchase the camera for a "Netflix original series" and the camera wouldn't be part of a camera package from a rental house. And the production is only going to have one camera at its disposal?

What if the camera goes down? The entire production halts while someone scrambles to obtain another C300 MkII? And the "Netflix original series" being shot never shoots two camera angles simultaneously?

I suspect that there is some exaggeration / yarn-spinning somewhere along the way in that story. That, or some low-budget, crap productions are able to secure a "Netflix original series" spot.
 
icarusfilm said:
It is relevant because people who invest in a top of the line camera want to assume that it will cover them for all "high end " jobs in a foreseeable future.
I know a DP who owns an Amira and got a a deal to DP a Netflix series and now has to get a c300II to shoot it. What I am saying is that its tricky on the high-end.
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What's a C300mkII, $12K? Drop in the bucket if he's really DP'ing a big series like that. I was recently on a big week long shoot for a 3-letter network. They were shooting promo's and the like for one of the sports they carry. I know the production manager. Four shoot days and the DP's rate was $70,000 for the week.
 
its a documentary series.

Run&Gun said:
What's a C300mkII, $12K? Drop in the bucket if he's really DP'ing a big series like that. I was recently on a big week long shoot for a 3-letter network. They were shooting promo's and the like for one of the sports they carry. I know the production manager. Four shoot days and the DP's rate was $70,000 for the week.
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laverdir said:
Crap is crap, even more in '4k'.

Netflix think that if they put higher technical specs requirements then their competition, it will automatically lead their audience to think that they have higher quality content.

It doesn't have anything to do with technology, it's pure marketing. They sell resolution (objective constant), it's easier then quality programing (subjective variable).

Form without substance will collapse when they run out of marketing tricks.
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BUT they ARE putting out some of the best content available right now. With a few exceptions, they're killing the major studio theatrical releases. I just went and watched The Mummy last night. How much did they spend making that flop? Tom Cruise, Russel Crowe, two hot chicks and a budget that was probably more than that of the actual country of Egypt and it wasn't half as good as most of the shows I've been watching on Netflix, Amazon or the likes of HBO, Showtime or Cinemax.
 
Run&Gun said:
just went and watched The Mummy last night. How much did they spend making that flop? Tom Cruise, Russel Crowe, two hot chicks and a budget that was probably more than that of the actual country of Egypt and it wasn't half as good as most of the shows I've been watching on Netflix, Amazon or the likes of HBO, Showtime or Cinemax.
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$125M, according to Box Office Mojo (+ global marketing, so figure ~ $170M total ... do I need to look up Egypt's GDP too?)
 
$70,000 4 days sports promo for a news channel.. no gear..these days.. no way.. ??.. I think they pulling your leg there.. never trust what a productions manager tells you they are paying other people :)

Unless for some reason they bought in one of the 10 ten guys in the world.. Oscar winner etc..
 
Run&Gun said:
Four shoot days and the DP's rate was $70,000 for the week.
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Is that actually the DP's rate, or is that what it cost to have that DP shoot it - including his gear, 3rd party rentals, travel, assistants, etc? There's a big difference between rates and billing - I often end up invoicing clients upwards of $3000 a day (and I'm talking camera operator jobs here, not DOP) but my rates are only a fraction of that.

I agree though that for somebody earning DOP rates on a Netflix Originals series, a C300mkII (or even a pair of them!) is really a drop in the bucket.
 
There was a thread about rates on another forum and I was surprised actually how low rates were for commercials (US rate).. its no where near what us "video guys" presume.. $1,500 to $2,500 a day for mid to high level commercials .. and features even less.. ok still not bad money to turn up with pulse and a light meter .. but its really only a hundred or less.. big name Dp,s who are earning the huge bucks.. there are tons of really good DP,s out there these days.. if anything there is a glut in the market and rates will go lower..
 
Harry Lime said:
I find it comical that they will accept footage from BlackMagic cameras, but you're not allowed to shoot on the Alexa which is considered the gold standard for IQ of the industry and is used to shoot the vast majority of features, commercials and TV shows in Hollywood.
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Harry Lime said:
Are you seriously going to pitch that a BM Mini 4.6k that aliases, has FPN and magenta vignetting delivers better IQ than an Alexa because it has a few more pixels? Given the list of cameras it seems like 4k+ was the main requirement to be met.

Yes, I get it. The Alexa is not 4k native and they are advertising 4k content, but resolution is not the sole determining factor for high IQ. If anything it's maybe 3rd or 4th on the list.
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I made the exact same points in the other thread about Netflix. Nobody who tested an Alexa and a Blackmagic could possibly think the Alexa is not up to the challenges the Blackmagic is. So it's clear image quality is not what they are worried about. They are worried about specifications.
 
icarusfilm said:
Arri will just ave to pump out a 4K production camera.
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I'm sure the other manufacturers must be happy Arri is taking their time to release a 4K camera. The Alexa is already the most used camera in the high end market without being 4k. Can you imagine when Arri hits with a 4K Alexa?
 
Sttratos said:
I'm sure the other manufacturers must be happy Arri is taking their time to release a 4K camera. The Alexa is already the most used camera in the high end market without being 4k. Can you imagine when Arri hits with a 4K Alexa?
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But please can it not weigh 5 tons and eat batteries .. and maybe a new more efficient codec .. :)
 
DLD said:
Resolution is what separates them from the OTA's, that shoot in either 080p or 2880P oversampled down to 1080p. So, with the 4K becoming the dominant format at home, this gives the Netflix originals a major leg up on the OTA programming. In 2020, when every middle class family can get 4k streamed at home, bring 1080P might as well be labeled B&W.
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Broadcasters are a the mercy of the fixed bandwidth they have available to send their signal and face a whole different set of problems than Netflix, Hulu etc. when it comes to 1080/4k.


As to URSA 4.6, they're allowing Raw only, where - one has to assume - the issues you are concerned about can be eliminated or, at worst, mitigated. URSA ProRes footage is deemed to be of an insufficient quality.
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The magenta vignetting is a hardware problem, as is the aliasing. You can't fix that just because it's RAW. That's not to mention the color science which has a strong cyan magenta bias.


But why should that concern Netflix? It's a huge global market. You want ARRI, you can shoot with ARRI. They don't want ARRI, aside of Alexa65, and that's how things stand.
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Sttratos said:
I made the exact same points in the other thread about Netflix. Nobody who tested an Alexa and a Blackmagic could possibly think the Alexa is not up to the challenges the Blackmagic is. So it's clear image quality is not what they are worried about. They are worried about specifications.
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As far as I can tell this resolution requirement thing started at Netflix around the time that they got involved with Fincher and House of Cards. Fincher has his own RED /6k reframe in post workflow and has been a big proponent of the high resolution negative. Obviously this workflow works very well for him and given his stature I can see management taking his advice as the word off the mountain.
 
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